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At a time when unemployment is on the uptick in 46 out of 50 states, employers are continuing to hire H-1B workers for high-paying jobs in the US as they ignore the pool of qualified, locally available US citizens and green card holders.

Preliminary figures are available for 2008 from the US Department of State. Compare the total number of visas issued for these visa programs to those from the previous years:

1998 = 91,360
1999 = 116,513
2000 = 133,290
2001 = 161,643
2002 = 118,352
2003 = 107,196
2004 = 138,965
2005 = 124,099
2006 = 135,421
2007 = 154,053
2008 = 129,464

1998 = 38,307
1999 = 41,739
2000 = 54,963
2001 = 59,384
2002 = 57,721
2003 = 57,245
2004 = 62,700
2005 = 65,458
2006 = 72,613
2007 = 84,532
2008 = 84,078

US employers have used high-cost lobbyists to get their way on this issue. Even though a cap of 65,000 was set for the H-1B visa in 2004, that figure does not represent the number of visas issued. Due to the intense pressure brought to bear on legislators in the US Congress by cash-rich multinational corporations, gorged on their ill-gotten gain in the tech sector, the number of visas issued each year has actually increased.

H-1B & L-1 Visas Issued 1989 - 2008 (  

Classes of Nonimmigrants Issued Visas (Detailed Breakdown)
(Including Crewlist Visas and Border Crossing Cards)
Fiscal Years 1989 - 2008*

H-1B Temporary worker - performing services other than as a registered nurse

1989 = -
1990 = 794
1991 = 51,882
1992 = 44,290
1993 = 35,818
1994 = 42,843
1995 = 51,832
1996 = 58,327
1997 = 80,547
1998 = 91,360
1999 = 116,513
2000 = 133,290
2001 = 161,643
2002 = 118,352
2003 = 107,196
2004 = 138,965
2005 = 124,099
2006 = 135,421
2007 = 154,053
2008 = 129,464

L-1 Intracompany transferee (executive, managerial, and specialized personnel continuing employment with international firm or corporation)

1989 = 13,648
1990 = 14,342
1991 = 16,109
1992 = 17,345
1993 = 20,369
1994 = 22,666
1995 = 29,088
1996 = 32,098
1997 = 36,589
1998 = 38,307
1999 = 41,739
2000 = 54,963
2001 = 59,384
2002 = 57,721
2003 = 57,245
2004 = 62,700
2005 = 65,458
2006 = 72,613
2007 = 84,532
2008 = 84,078

Americans have been displaced from their tech jobs by this alarming and destructive trend by US corporations ever since the early 1990's. It can be said that, during the 1995 through 2000 time frame, there were a large number of tech jobs available. Since 2000, and especially post-9/11, the primary function of the visas has been to displace US IT workers at an ever-increasing rate. The number of new tech jobs available in the US for the years 2001 through 2004 was roughly equal to the number of H-1B visas being issued for the year. Americans were, unjustifiably, losing ground in one of the best employment areas in their own country. This was due to bypass. CEOs and other opportunists spotted a quick way to pay themselves larger bonuses. Their approach has been to do the damage of replacing Americans first, reward themselves with increased bonuses second, and evaluate the existence of any possible benefit from their rash, unwarranted, and destructive actions last.

The demographic sectors in the US population who have suffered disproportionately from the egregious actions of CEOs, board members, and other execs? Women and blacks. Who is perpetrating the racist, sexist actions of bypass and discrimination against all US citizens and green card holders in the US, and especially against American women and blacks? The CEOs, board members, and other managers who have adopted this destructive, ineffective approach to filling their IT needs, not the unfortunate IT workers in the US who are being victimized by employers who bypass them.

Originally posted to tech ed on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 01:31 PM PST.


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Comment Preferences

  •  Companies taking bailout money (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tech ed

    are no linger allowed to hire H-1B's, I read it somewhere

    "In Japan, American occupation forces quickly became 50,000 friends. In Iraq, they would quickly become 50,000 terrorist targets. " James Webb, Sep 02

    by ParaHammer on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 01:38:10 PM PST

    •  SA 306, an amendment to H.R.1, the ARRA (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      0wn, palantir

      does have symbolic limitations to the way in which the banks receiving funds from TARP are eligible to receive H-1B visas for their new workers.

      SA 306 is insignificant in scope. It was carefully crafted to have minimal effect on the rate at which US citizens and green card holders are being replaced for IT jobs, and for other high-paying jobs.

  •  Agreed, let's get rid of the H-1B visa altogether (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob B, 0wn, palantir, Katie71, sturunner, tech ed

    except in cases where there is absolutely no American (or green card holder) that can do the job.

    No reason Americans can't do these jobs other than employers not wanting to pay a real wage to an American when they can get a foreigner to do it for less.

    •  If you ask me, there following (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caelian, tle, Bob B, palantir, sturunner, bgblcklab1

      extremely viable options are already available to US employers in the event that there is really nobody available for their jobs:

      1. training for US citizens and green card holders who are available, in order to make them into a fit or the job openings
      1. O-1 visa for tech professionals and others of extraordinary ability

      The fact that over 55% of H-1B workers come in as entry-level and are then provided with copious OJT after being hired should be enough to convince anyone that the visas are not needed.

      Even Milton Friedman, a neoclassical economist, labeled the visas as "a corporate subsidy." there is no coherent rationale that supports the continued use of the visas as opposed to hiring US citizens and green card holders and providing them the opportunity that would have been given to the H-1B recipient.

  •  Get the US citizens who had IT jobs back into (8+ / 0-)

    the job market!

    Call Congress - Senate and House - on this issue!

    Posting your comments to Vice President Biden would also be of benefit to the US, and the global economy. We need to get the US back to work.

    The quickest way to do that is to put the middle class back into the IT jobs that they once had.

    Can Kossacks support the cause of getting US citizens and green card holders back into the job market NOW?

    Some think it would be better to wait two to three years for some newly-created green jobs while the H-1B workers continue to have some of the best paying jobs in the country?

  •  I can tell you are angry... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dennisl, palantir, chrome327, sturunner

    But let me ask you this...

    When you buy seafood, do you only buy American caught fish, shrimp, etc?   Do you even look?   Seafood caught in countries where laws and regulations do not prevent overfishing or dangerous food practices.

    The American fishing community has been struggling for years against foreign importation of seafood that is also caught and processed an this country.   I know, because we have lost substantial amounts of income because of it.

    Fish plants are closed down, workers are out of jobs..and crew are working for less as fuel prices almost literally put us out of business this past year.

    It sucks..and I feel your pain.   But it isn't just IT people who are struggling with this.   I guess it takes one's personal ox being gored to get angry, huh?

    Still, I have looked on Google for the 65K cap and I can't find it, so I am not sure what you are talking about.   Did I miss a diary?

    Good luck to you.

    •  This is about bypass, and the rights of US (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      palantir, sturunner

      citizens and green card holders.

      Civil rights are being violated. The US Congress has recognized that fact in passing SA 306. It is time to act swiftly and decisively on this issue. Restore EEO in the US - even when it concerns IT jobs.

    •  There is a remarkable class aspect to this. (6+ / 0-)

      Manufacturing jobs, fisheries, blue-collar jobs of all sorts have been moving overseas for the past few decades now.  Organized labor has been trying to get people to listen, but nobody has.  IT workers, thinking themselves middle-class and white-collar, haven't organized, and haven't stood by ordinary American workers as they watched job after job go to cheapo foreign manufacturers with low wages and even fewer labor standards.

      Now, of course, it's the IT folks' middle-class jobs disappearing, and they're wondering where their allies are.  I bet they wish American labor had a louder voice now.  I bet they wish they had a union standing up for them.

      Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

      by mistersite on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:24:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  When Hannibal Barca said "Divide and Conquer," (0+ / 0-)

        he knew what he was talking about. The plutocracy has no doubt had the benefit of this lesson from history. However, in the US, there are historical precedents against discrimination. When we bring pressure against the US employers who practice bypass, we will be striking another blow for civil rights.

        We need to address these issues in order to move forward in this economic recovery. We need worker solidarity in addition to professional organizations.

        Why should the upper one tenth of one percent in the US have the same income as the bottom fifty percent? All the bypass and all the other employer-generated issues are in support of that basic premise. They oppress the common people for a reason: increasing the disparity of wealth and income between the rich and the poor.

        •  Sure, you're all economic populists now. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza, chrome327, tech ed

          Where were you in 2000-2001, when the internet jockeys were riding high and blue-collar workers were getting hosed?  Pushing for lower taxes on the rich, because all of Silicon Valley thought they'd be able to cash out with a million dollars in an IPO.  Certainly not thinking of organizing your labor, or standing with the trade and labor unions while they watched job after job shipped overseas.  "This won't happen to us; we're white-collar and college educated.  We're indispensable.  They won't be able to ship our jobs to Mexico or China."

          Maybe if the IT department had understood in the high-flying '90s that their lot was inextricably tied to that of the American worker, we wouldn't be in this mess.  Maybe if they'd have stood with American labor when they needed help, we'd have more jobs over here and tougher trade laws.  But it's only a problem, apparently, when it's happening to you...

          Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

          by mistersite on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 03:23:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •   I agree that mistakes were made in the past. (0+ / 0-)

            Employers have made us behave like the Eloi, of H.G. Wells' celebrated work, "The Time Machine."

            Right now, I think it's important that we look forward in order to make it through this economic downturn, by attempting to achieve full employment for US citizens and green card holders. That's what worked - finally - during the last depression. It wasn't until the workplace in the US brought in Rosie the Riveter, every man, woman, and child had a job, that the depression finally abated.

          •  Baloney (0+ / 0-)

            I was in IT in the 90s (still am), and I certainly wasn't pushing for lower taxes on the rich.  As for organizing, there was plenty of talk about a union for IT.  The company I worked for made it crystal clear that, if IT joined or formed a union, they'd outsource the whole thing.

            "Stood with" American labor?  What does that even mean?  I am American labor.

            I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

            by tle on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 06:25:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Yes as a matter of fact, I do try to buy American (5+ / 0-)

      products.  I can't speak for "tech ed", of course, but many of those who believe as he does, do try to support the local/US economy.

      However, I appreciate your point that it's not just white collar workers who are exploited by the economic system.  Blue collar workers are often worse off.

      •  It is to be hoped that Kossacks will recognize (0+ / 0-)

        the employment issues that are here, in front of us, today.

        Obama's words have provided some hope for change. We need large numbers of voters who are politically active to contact their representation in Congress in order to help restore EEO in the US.

  •  Let H-1B's Change Jobs After 1 Year, THAT (8+ / 0-)

    will kill this f'ing program faster than this number or that number or this category or that category.


    I worked with a bunch of these people at Microsoft 8 years ago.  They were just doing the best they could AND, by the way, they did have kick ass skills.

    HOWEVER, they were locked in micro-slavery cuz they couldn't change jobs, they had to stay with the company that sponsored them, so micro-fuck under paid them cuz they were goddam slaves.

    IF they could have changed jobs, they would have been gone for higher salaries

    which means micro-fuck wouldn't have hired most of htem !

    end of problem.


    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

    by seabos84 on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 01:46:43 PM PST

    •  Yeah, but they eventually get free and do take (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caelian, tech ed

      a better paying job. That's why the corps keep asking for more H-1B's. But you are right. It's a very anti-free market policy the corps follow.

      •  When they insist on bypassing US citizens and (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        palantir, Katie71, sturunner

        green card holders based on their status, that is definitely anti-free trade.

        I am not a great fan of unfettered free trade, myself. It does little to increase the standard of living for most people in the US. In the past, it has been used to provide exponentially-increasing profits for the plutocracy. The upper one tenth of one percent has benefited enormously from free trade. In the US, nobody else has. The income disparity between rich and poor grows larger every day.

        •  Kind of my point. Free markets are great (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tech ed

          but only when it benefits the corps and fat cats.

          •  We should be using a different (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            school of economic thought. One that works.

            The neoclassical theory allows the definition of a successful economy even though a portion of the population in each country is destroyed. The theory maintains that such destruction of individuals is acceptable in order to attain an objective known as the greater good. In the US, the destruction of STEM fields as career paths for US citizens and green card holders is one of the stated objectives. Us employers have pressured Congress, and Congress has agreed, that relatively few US citizens will be permitted to work in these areas.

            Perhaps an economist such as Krugman, of the Keynesian school of economic thought, could be of greater assistance in times such as these. We are in need of assistance, thanks to the widespread acceptance of the neoclassical economics that have guided policy for the last 30 years.

      •  AFTER getting a green card, in 4 or 6 years. that (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, palantir, Katie71, tech ed

        is NOT free.

        and, by the way, micro-fuck has now saved 40 or 80,000 a year for 4 or 6 years, which is 1 of the great attractions to this program to micro-fuck.


        Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

        by seabos84 on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:20:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  H-1 visa holders can change jobs (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      demnomore, palantir

      pretty much at any time, providing they find another company to sponsor them. . .

      link (about half way down the page)

      •  This has been described by H-1B workers as an (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        enormous hassle. Besides that, the H-1B recipient may hardly have enough time left out the week to sleep, wash clothes, etc.

        90-hour plus work weeks can cut into the time available to set up a new sponsor. Yup, the principles supporting slave labor are back! Is that in agreement with your POV?

        •  There is some paperwork to be done (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cacophonix, capelza

          a tad less, actually, than setting up the visa in the first place.

          Plus, the sponsoring company is responsible for completing the bulk of the paperwork and paying the fees, so it's not clear how that's an enormous hassle for the recipient.

          And yes, I agree with the problems of slave labor, I personally would be less squeamish if these folk weren't constantly shackled hand and foot to their desk during the day and bed at night but heck, they *do* live in the USA, I suppose they have to expect that there is a price to pay for that. . .

          •  you're NOT being realistic. FREE is put resume on (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tech ed

            the internet on monday,
            by friday you'd have been flown to 3 or 4 different jobs interview around the country,
            and in 2 mondays you'd be in your NEW office making $40,000 or $80,000 a year more.

            THAT freedom would kill the program.


            Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

            by seabos84 on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:23:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  They are totally free to do that . . . (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              and if they'd really be offered $40 to $80K more than their present pay, I doubt that potential sponsoring companies would bat an eyelash at the $5 to $15K costs . . .

              There seems to be a huge amount of disinformation in these threads, such as your suggestion that H-1 folk can't search for jobs using normal routes . .

              •  I WORKED WITH THESE PEOPLE!!! disinformation my (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tech ed

                I dated someone who was a lawyer in an outfit that did this kind of immigration law.

                does anything get through?


                Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

                by seabos84 on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:36:37 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I work with people on H-1 visas as well . . . (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  They look for other job options as much as anyone.

                  But, the biggest obstacle is not - in fact in stark constrast to what this diary alleges that US Companies are (figuratively) dying to hire people in this status - most companies will simply not even consider them because of the obstacles posed by the paperwork, dealing with the DHS, etc.

                  So yeah, these diaries are chock full of disinformation.

      •  Reimbursing legal costs (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Some companies require an H-1B to repay the company's legal expenses if he or she leaves before the servitude has ended.

        I knew a fellow who was delighted when he was laid off since he could leave without reimbursing.

        Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
        Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

        by Caelian on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:10:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I still think that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      a combination of measures, reducing or suspending the visas, and also using the tax codes - providing breaks for corporations who do not use visas - will be effective.

      It would be a measure of good faith on the part of the US Congress, though, to suspend the visa programs for a length of time. That would help to retrain the unbridled corporate behemoths that insist on hiring under these programs, and bypassing Americans.

      It would demonstrate to them that the "bag of marsh mellows" really is empty.

  •  If you're looking for a little diversion (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

        The Constellation of Orion go out tonight and take a look at the sky

  •  Oh, too bad (6+ / 0-)

    you missed the other anti-Indian tirader with lots of bold text.  You would have liked him.

    Here's a comment by him.  Maybe you guys can hook up and pretend you are really just a big ol' feminist and that's what this is all about.

    Who is perpetrating the racist, sexist actions of bypass and discrimination against all US citizens and green card holders in the US, and especially against American women and blacks?

    Yeah, right.

    I thought of you the other day when I saw an ad for a tech job, but the project leader is Russian and I know how you feel about them.

    Why would Russians want to destroy STEM fields as a possible career path for Americans? Can anybody come up with a reason?

    Could it be due to the fact that they hate us intensely, and would love the opportunity to defeat us in a military conflict? Russians are the worst enemies we have.

    Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of logic. --The Onion

    by mem from somerville on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:06:28 PM PST

    •  Try as you may, you can not (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      change the facts. The H-1B visa program should never have been perpetrated on the US.

      We have the O-1 visa for individuals of extraordinary ability. There has never been any need to bring in more workers under a different visa program.

  •  u dont understand law (5+ / 0-)

    65000 is only for NEW H1B visa applicants. Plus there is another 20000 for People who got Masters and PhD in US. PLus universities are exempt from the law.

    BTW, I find all this throwing out H1B's a bit racist. I would have thought that people who support the new President would not problems with immigrants (him being son of one). But then!

    •  The true number of H-1B visas issued each year (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      is far above what is described as a cap. The total of all visas issued that could be used to replace US citizens and green card holders is actually closer to the 250,000 to 300,000 range.

      Bypass is the issue here. US citizens and green card holders are being subjected to bypass and performance mythology.

      US employers have bypassed local talent for the jobs.

      Lobbyists have attempted to support the use of visas for years. They have hired think tanks who have cranked out bogus numbers and designed studies around their efforts to fabricate the result they need. In reality, there is no justification for replacing US citizens and green card holders. There are no skills shortages and visa shortages.

      •  I am not sure what u mean (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cacophonix, capelza

        I know some of these H1B's and their salary ranges 65 k-100K. Seems to me that the ``local talent'' should be happy to work in this range. If there is local talent that does not work at that range, then I would say they are being greedy. So unless you show be evidence to the contrary, I do not buy your rant against how H1Bs are destroying USA.

        •  US employers are bypassing US citizens (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          and green card holders. You are unclear on the concept, ann0nymous.

          Bypass is when the employers ignore the local candidates for the positions, and hire someone else instead. The US citizens and green card holders are never offered the positions at any salary. They are not considered for the jobs. Prior to the introduction of the H-1B and L-1 visa programs in 1990, they were considered for the jobs.

          Bypass is nothing new, however. Women and blacks were routinely bypassed for jobs before the Civil Right movement got underway. That's why this issue is a no-brainer to most of us. The US voters have already seen this happening in the US, and we have changed it.

          •  Why would they do such a thing? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            What prejudice do American CEOs have against their own? Do u have any hard stats to prove ur central claim except that there are x number of H1Bs issued ever year.

            And I am willing to bet that H1B is the last thing that Obama changes.

            •  You make an assumption in support of US business (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hens Teeth

              leaders that has been proven to be unfounded. In general, they are not to be relied upon to adhere to any ethical or even marginally normal standards of conduct. The level of corrupt and avaricious behavior on the part of CEOs in the US has been unacceptable, even by the standards of a society that applauds and rewards unfathomable greed. From the sounds of this, you would automatically believe whatever the business leaders of the day told you to believe.

              Simply put, they are determined use bypass to:

              1. Drive income equality (destroy the American middle class)
              1. Make believe that they are saving the company money by cutting overhead expenses.

              What is the real effect on the company's profits or on the US economy? The economy is in free fall! The company's profits? That has yet to be determined, since nobody bothers to evaluate the success or failure of the US worker replacement business model. Short term, it may look as if greater profits are being achieved. Long term?

              If you look at Microsoft's latest products, Vista and Windows 7, you will understand why so many people urge a return to the days of paying the market rate for a good software developer. These latest releases from MS are completely unacceptable to over 50% of their user base. Companies are rolling back the operating system to an older system, Windows XP, rather than venture onto the unstable Vista or Windows 7.

              Check into the previous diary entries for more information:
              The Performance Mythology, and Why It was Created by the Tech Lobbyists

              Education Updates

              Top Five Myths

              Why should anyone support Americans in the STEM fields?
              There is a principle called EEO, for one thing.
              Blacks in Computer Science

  •  obsession (4+ / 0-)

    why are you obsessed with H1b visas ? Do you know the costs involved in applying for a H1B visa, including the lawyer fees ?

    If some kind of health care reform is passed, companies will have kess reason to hire people through consultancies like Infosys and Robert Half.

    Reality has a well known liberal bias. - S. Colbert

    by arnott on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:09:45 PM PST

  •  Bypass...EEO...bypass....Indians are bad (4+ / 0-)


    Rabindranath Tagore-"Bigotry tries to keep truth safe in its hand with a grip that kills it."

    by joy sinha on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:32:24 PM PST

    •  If you want to generalize about (0+ / 0-)

      people and state that

      Indians are bad

      , maybe you should be posting on another website.

      DKos is a progressive forum. It sounds like you need to find an extremist discussion board so that you can spew your venom there.

      •  Buddy you are calling me extremist? (0+ / 0-)

        You are the one who is obsessed with H1B and want to throw out all the H1Bs. Who is the extremist?

        Rabindranath Tagore-"Bigotry tries to keep truth safe in its hand with a grip that kills it."

        by joy sinha on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:41:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe you shoudl post somewhere else (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joy sinha

        This is the language you used:

        It's true that the foreign-born among the work force often like to hire other foreign-born workers.

        That's stark naked xenophobia. You are the extremist here, tech ed. Joy was being snarky and parodying you.

        Also, that you couldn't get the snark shows us all how smart you really are.

  •  the point is the H1-B is anti-free market (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tech ed

    the H1-B workers are close to being indentured servants...oh sure they can try to find other jobs...but for most of them the reality is they are stuck working for the sponsoring company...usually thru a foreign firm that is "partners" with the American firm...they have to take the pay and work conditions they find or go back home...
    and American companies use these to cut costs period...not to fill voids...i have worked as a contractor at many large financial servies companies...all of them are using thousands of H1-B workers alongside their employees and local contractors doing the same one of these firms my contract was cut short recently to save money...weeks later hundreds of employees were laid off, including an employee i had spent months working with so they could do the job i was doing. Who is making up for all the shortages now so the work can still get done? You guessed it - the H1-B visa workers.
    I don't blame them. Most of them know their better, no worse than the American workers...and it's a great opportunity for them...most are young and what a great time to see another part of the world and get paid to do it. I blame the executives who have no problem putting American employees and local contractors on the streets while using H1-B visas to keep their work force at an acceptable level as far as numbers go...then they pocket their $20-$30 million dollars in annual compensation and go crying to the government and taxpayers when they eff up their companies anyway...

    Blue is blue and must be that. But yellow is none the worse for it - Edith Sidebottom

    by kenwards on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:47:05 PM PST

  •  You do know what you are talking about. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cacophonix, joy sinha

    You are wrong. Period. H1b visas, which are subject to cap, are capped at 65,000. Some years, US immigration service issued even less than it is allowed. They are not supposed to count visas to the cap when they are not used, e.g., an applicant does not come from abroad. Well, US immigration service does not track it well, so these cases do count for the cap.  Positions at universities (postdoctoral researcher) are not subject to the cap. When you extended initial 3-year visa for the second 3-year visa, this is not subject to the cap. You do count all these cases in your diary.

    H1b visas are for all professions with at least bachelor education. It is not just IT. It is also for scientists, engineers.

    It is correct that in some areas there are no qualified US citizens. Educated, smart US citizens (Ph.D, MSc. level) do not want to live in Midwest. They move to coasts. If you have a company in Midwest, there are no qualified applicants to do your R & D. Period. What would you do? (1)You do not do R&D, you just manufacture the same product forever. You get killed by competition when they come with better invention. (2) You fire all your workers (US citizens) and move the company to the East or West Coast. (3) You hire H1b worker to do product development. Make your pick now.

    •  He doesn't know what he is talking about. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      His answers are a bunch of talking points: bypass, EEO etc etc.

      Rabindranath Tagore-"Bigotry tries to keep truth safe in its hand with a grip that kills it."

      by joy sinha on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 02:53:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Completely wrong. (0+ / 0-)

      You need to study the facts. These figures are from the US Department of State.

      Areas that are not subject to the cap are many. Education, health care, government, and nonprofits are able to place a worker on the H-1B visa program, and the placement need not be counted against the cap. The "official" cap of 65,000 visas is nowhere near an accurate or valid representation of the number of visas actually issued. The number of visas issued in any year can go as high as this:

      2007 = 154,053

  •  Change is coming (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tech ed

    Big business owning government produces the H1B visa type laws.
    Obamas election slightly shifted power over to labor.
    No country with real democracy and organized labor would have the H1B visa law.
    Can you imagine Tata corporation in India lobbying the Indian government to create 100k labor visas each year for Bangladeshi and Pakistani engineers.
    India has real democracy and its unthinkable that such lobbying efforts would get far.

    •  No change in H1b (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Actually, Germany is looking for scientists and relaxing immigration laws for similarly educated people. Most democracies (Canada, France, UK) make it much easier for educated people to come than US, so they do have similar laws.  You are wrong. Period.

      •  US citizens and green card holders are being (0+ / 0-)

        subjected to bypass in violation of EEO. This will not stand any scrutiny in the light of day.

        Your argument is intended to invoke a response of irrational fear. This tactic will not work when you are in a discussion with stable, reasoning adults.

        Over 55% of the people brought in under the H-1B visa program are entry-level. How do you justify that? The employers could just as easily train US citizens and green card holders as bring in inexperienced recruits from overseas. What happens in many instances is that the CEOs and hiring managers are scared that the new trainee will leave the position. In order to address that irrational fear, they try to insist that no US citizens be hired as entry level and trained, or hired as an experienced worker and then allowed to come up to speed in the new environment on a reasonable schedule. Their solution is to destroy the STEM fields in the US.

      •  Link please. (0+ / 0-)

        After an exhausting application process they may let in a phd scientist or two.
        I'd be very interested in reading about a real democratic country that goes against the interests of its own labor force and accepts 100k engineers a year.
        This is really about big business interests taking over government. Its a continuation of the struggle between labor and management that has been going on for over 100 years. Management usually wins but every now and then labor scores a victory like the minimum wage laws and 40 hr weeks.

        •  The O-1 visa program is for individuals (0+ / 0-)

          of extraordinary ability. That's where your Ph.D. scientist (research level) comes into it. Check the link to the table. US Department of State

          The table explains the usage of each visa program. Your researchers will be covered by the O-1 visa. Of course, there's the possibility that they are not really needed. That is when we resort to the old standby - train the local talent that is available for the position.

          •  A PhD level scientist (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            is not guaranteed an O-1 visa. You have to be something special (like a nobel laureate) to get guaranteed O-1. International faculties recruited by all the US universities all get H1B visa. This has been told to you in each and every one of your H1B diaries (the only diaries you write anyways). Someone who asked others to study these issues should know this by now. I guess you don't like a counter point that goes against your agenda.  

            Rabindranath Tagore-"Bigotry tries to keep truth safe in its hand with a grip that kills it."

            by joy sinha on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 07:47:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  You have no idea what an O-1 is (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joy sinha

            PhD's and researchers don't automatically qualify for an O-1. The bar is way too high.

            You really need to get some of this straight before starting to shoot off your mouth.

        •  I have friends who work overseas (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          and I was considering emigrating if we lost this past election.  Don't believe everything you hear from Lou Dobbs and his ilk.

          Denmark is lovely, and has this policy:

          If you have found work in one of the areas that is currently experiencing a shortage of qualified labour, e.g. as a doctor, IT specialist, engineer, lab technician etc., you will be granted a Danish residence and work permit immediately.

          They also are among the happiest people on earth.  Go figure....

          Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of logic. --The Onion

          by mem from somerville on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 03:45:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  H1-B caps should be raised or even lifted. (4+ / 0-)

    The imposition of tight H1-B caps is what leads to outsourcing.

    By lifting the H1-B caps, we will get the best, brightest and most industrious people to come here to work.  When all the talent is concentrated here, the money and jobs will follow.  We would not have had the tech revolution of the 80's and 90's without the H1-B program or its antecedents.  

    There is a lot of Kossack ignorance about immigration that borders on Lou Dobbs' nativist tendencies.  

    The other thing that Kossacks should take note of is that America is a relatively lower cost labor market right now, as the cost of living in the top offshore labor markets has risen to western levels (it ain't cheap to live in Mumbai or Bangalore anymore).  

    Meanwhile, housing prices and general cost of living in the US are going down, making the US an ideal prospect for direct investment.  We should be inviting foreigners to invest and create jobs in the US. For every H1 that is hired in the US, I'll bet there are probably 2-3 jobs created for US citizens and permanent residents.  

    Labor markets change, but the demand for the American dream is inelastic.  

    Alternative rock with something to say:

    by khyber900 on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 03:19:21 PM PST

    •  Then you are completely in favor of bypassing (0+ / 0-)

      US citizens and green card holders. You would allow - or even encourage - US employers to hire exclusively from abroad for the STEM fields in the US!

      •  No. What I am saying is if you bring in a lot of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        talent from home and abroad and concentrate that talent in certain key regions of the country, it will create critical mass and then the money and investment will follow to develop and incubate new companies.  This will have a multiplier effect that will help the entire economy.  The US is a low cost market right now with quality infrastructure, and can support hundreds of new companies.  I don't view this as a zero-sum process as you seem to.

        Alternative rock with something to say:

        by khyber900 on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 03:37:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The new companies were already being created (0+ / 0-)

          and incubated at an exemplary rate prior to 1990.

          The H-1B program began in 1990, but it hasn't produced any increase in the number of new successful new companies formed, or in the level of innovation produced by companies in the US. That line of reasoning is nothing more than a simple-minded ploy on the part of lobbyists to try to justify the egregious treatment being handed to US citizens and green card holders by US employers who prefer to bypass local talent for the jobs.

          •  Au contraire (0+ / 0-)

            You are completely wrong, and here's the proof:

            Over the past 15 years, immigrants have started 25 percent of U.S. public companies that were venture-backed, a high percentage of the most innovative companies in America.

            IOW, without immigrants, the number of new innovative/successful (venture backed) companies started would've been 25% lower. Remove one out of 4, you get 3; 1/3 = 33%; ergo there were 33% more companies because of immigrants. Get that?

            This is where studies come in handy. You know, scientific shit?

  •  most ironic (5+ / 0-)

    what I find most ironic about our neo-laborpopulist  tech friends is that they work in industries whose entire manufacturing base was outsourced and off-shored years ago. These same engineers, programmers, and designers who sat by idly as every technical innovation in the last thirty years has led not to more jobs for US workers in the tech manufacturing sector...but rather whole industries moving first to Japan, then China, then Korea, or India. I wonder where the chips, transformers, processors and servers these STEM professionals rely on for their livelihood are manufactured... we know it's not the US.

    They complain now that the last vestiges of our nearly century old technical advantage withers away and intellectual capital now becomes globalized....but they didn't say a peep when those who worked making everything from TV's to computers first felt the pinch of global competition.

    welcome to the world of the US labor market... it's been going on for more than a century, and the time for you to have taken labors cause was years ago when the US workers manufacturing those wonderful, and innovative products designed by US STEM professionals FIRST started losing THEIR jobs and industries.

    •  We need to direct our attention toward (0+ / 0-)

      the actions of US employers who are intent on robbing us of the American dream: opportunity and upward mobility.

      Help us correct the injustices of the past.
      Together we can build a better future for the US workers under the new administration, and under the new, Democratic Congress.

      •  Help us correct the injustices of the past. (5+ / 0-)

        Please... don't make me laugh

        you care about one, and only one thing.... ending H1b visas ... and ....

        you couldn't give a rats ass about broader labor issues

        go stand in solidarity with the Farm workers as they try to get a living wage and basic saftey standards( like a drink of water and the right to a break in 100 degree heat), talk to the Auto workers who must now compete with scab-labor in "right-to-work" states, talk to those in SEIU, about wage and hour violations, working 70 hour weeks, work with Commercial foodworkers to end the horors in the US meat packing industry, talk to the Steel workers about cheap imports and global competition ...or the millions of other labor activists who've been fighting for years.

        Don't come here begging support for your pet issue...the one that effects only you...and expect everyone to rally around you. ... your neo-labor, equal employment opportuniy arguement holds no water here.... where the hell were the tech, neo-laborites during all the years of battles for equal employment opportunities ... now when a bunch of mostly white, middle-aged, highly educated, well paid workers, feel the globalization's all about "equal opportunity".....geez

        you can't wait until YOUR house is on fire to call for help when the whole neighborhood's been on fire for years and you sat by comfortably watching others lives go up in flames


  •  Your CONCERN for anti-market forces is BS (3+ / 0-)

    wtf? You want free markets with a dollop of jingoism, go join the Rethuglicans. This is thinly-disguised racism and nothing more. What do you have against Indians, Filipinos, and Koreans who just want a chance at the American dream?

    Or is this a class thing? Is it because the H-1Bs come here in shiny, modern planes instead of dragging their rat-bitten asses across the southern border that you want to keep them out?

    Did anyone around here scream "BYPASS!" when the Mexican gardeners and construction workers took away blue collar jobs?

    I'm not buying this diary for shit.

    Senator Clinton, if you knew then what you know now, would you have married Bill?

    by Miss Orange on Sun Mar 01, 2009 at 07:03:53 PM PST

  •  Tech ed, are you a xenophobe? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joy sinha

    See, if I said, "black people only like to hire other black people", that would be racist.

    If I said, "women/men only like to hire other women/men", that would be sexist.

    You said, and I quote:

    It's true that the foreign-born among the work force often like to hire other foreign-born workers.

    You just made that accusation, and walked away. No justification, nothing to back it up.

    That is plain and naked xenophobia. It is particularly disappointing from someone who calls themselves a progressive. You have never retracted this. It's about time. DO IT!

    Otherwise you are just a xenophobe in a progressive's clothing.

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