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This is a fresh ad by US employers that recruits US jobs overseas and will eventually replace even more US workers.

USA team - hiring Overseas

We require Software Engineers from various skillsets to join our USA team under H1B visa program. The basic qualification of B.E./B.Tech./MCA/MBA/ is required with very good aptitude skills.
Desired Candidate Profile
We are currently looking for IT consultants with 2-6 years of experience with various technologies like Java/ J2EE, .NET, Oracle Apps, SAP, Informatica, Linux, Oracle Development, Service Oriented Architecture, Data Warehouse etc

US workers need the jobs if we are to recover from this economic cataclysm, be it Recession or Depression. The last Great Depression was not overcome until there was full employment in the US. Rosie the Riveter embodied the nation's zeitgeist, not only overpowering the threat of Axis aggression, but at the same time putting the stop on the Great Depression of the thirties.

Today, most of the movers and shakers in the US are still far more intent on legally discriminating against US citizens and other authorized workers for jobs than they are in putting the people who live in this country back to work in any meaningful way. This is nothing new; it began during the eighties. The unions were broken by management for the benefit of emerging plutocrats throughout the globe. Flush with success in dealing industrial workers a crippling blow, the same miniscule faction of the population set its sights on the high tech industry that had sprung up in the US in the meantime. The H-1B visa was spawned in 1990, specifically in order to bypass US workers for the jobs in the US.

Fabrications were constructed by think tanks that were funded by the burgeoning plutocracy and the bogus facts were published through all available media outlets. The lies concocted to destroy the lives of US citizens and other legal workers described "skills shortages." We are still exposed to the same disinformation today in the news media. They are, almost without exception, remiss in their failure to investigate and publish the truth about the US job market. The purported skills shortages are still being passed off on an all-too-gullible public, the same way the imaginary threat of WMD in Iraq was. The same way "Mission Accomplished" was.

Sadly, US STEM professionals have been SwiftBoated since 1990 by the disinformation campaign that promotes the H-1B program.

Responsibility can be placed on most of the elected officials since the early eighties, almost all representatives of the media, and business leaders, who will stop at nothing to increase the quarterly bottom line, in order to pay themselves larger bonuses.

US STEM Students talk about the job market, and their career prospects

US STEM students experience anger when they contemplate what the future in the US holds for them and for their families. Is this the American way?

The following statements from our new government leaders are very encouraging. Don't get me wrong. I am fully supportive of the new administration and of Hilda Solis, but I would rather see more direct dialog concerning the jobs that already exist in the US today. Instead of creating new jobs from the void, we could easily clean up the existing job market, and thereby restore millions of US citizens and other legal workers to full employment status immediately in the current job market.

Obama pledges support for work to revive stricken economy.

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AFP) — President Barack Obama and senior aides on Friday bemoaned staggering data showing the highest unemployment rate for 25 years, but vowed to redouble their work to revive the stricken economy.

Labor Department figures showed the economy shed 651,000 jobs in February alone, to send the unemployment rate soaring to 8.1 percent, revealing the grim depths of the recession and further complicating Obama's recovery effort.

The president said during a visit to the economically hard-hit state of Ohio that the latest data brought the "total number of jobs lost in the recession to an astounding 4.4 million."

President Obama does not mention passing SB 1035, Durbin's bill to change the H-1B program. He should mention it. In fact, it would be very encouraging if he were to support, at the very least, this measure and push the bill through Congress. I think that this would best serve the pressing interests of the American voters who put him in office! We need jobs now, not in a few years, and not just the shovel ready construction jobs that have recently been funded. That Americans do not do Math and Science is a Republican view, not a progressive one. It was John McCain who mouthed those contemptible words, not Barak Obama, Dick Durbin, Bernie Sanders, or Hilda Solis.

Hilda Solis, Labor Secretary, issued a press release yesterday.

WASHINGTON, March 6 PRNewswire-USNewswire -- U.S. Secretary of Labor Hilda L. Solis issued the following statement on the February 2009 Employment Situation report released today:

Today we learned that our economy lost another 651,000 jobs in February, bringing the unemployment rate to 8.1 percent. Four-point-four million Americans have now lost their jobs since this recession began last year, and there are now nearly three million Americans who have been unemployed for six months or more.

These data do not just represent abstract statistics. Rather, they illustrate the struggles of millions of Americans who do not know how they will raise their families or pay their bills and mortgages. They are the central focus of this administration's economic policies, and why we are moving swiftly and aggressively to jumpstart job creation and grow our economy.

As part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, President Obama and I have already moved to increase unemployment insurance benefits and to extend the duration of unemployment insurance. In addition, I am announcing today that the Labor Department is making available more than three and a half billion dollars to states for education, training and re-employment services.

We will continue to do whatever is necessary to break the destructive cycle of job loss in this country and put Americans back to work. That includes our plans to re-start lending for consumers and small businesses, help responsible homeowners pay their mortgages and re-finance their homes, and address the long-term economic challenges we face -- including the high cost of health care, our dependence on oil and the state of our schools.

From the day this administration began, we knew that solving the economic crisis we were presented with would not be easy and would not happen overnight. But the president and I believe that this nation has both the resources and the will to meet this challenge, and emerge stronger and more prosperous than before.

In spite of the efforts of a few US journalists who have integrity in their news reporting, Americans need to go offshore to obtain ethical news coverage. Many Americans have given up on the sold out, FOX-style media operating in the US. To obtain comprehensive, unbiased news coverage, they go to the BBC or to a different offshore publication instead.

Fresh take on the discrimination against US workers that is inherent in the H-1B visa program, authored by Norm Matloff, Ph.D. - published in an offshore news service.

  1. The employers' love of the H-1B program comes, more than anything else, from a desire to avoid hiring the older (again, even 35 is "old") engineers and programmers. The reason employers don't want to hire Ms. Liu's father is not for the reason they are giving him--i.e. it is not because he supposedly doesn't have the latest skills--but rather it's because employers regard him as too expensive. New/recent grads in general, and young H-1Bs even more so, provide the employers with cheap alternatives to Mr. Liu.
  1. The "latest skills" issue is a pretext. It's phony. I've gone into this in great detail, e.g. in the CLER link I cited above, and in my University of Michigan article cited in the CLER article.
  1. Given that he is an engineer, Mr. Liu is almost certainly a former H-1B who first came to this country as a foreign student. That does add some irony here, but he at least has a green card and is likely a naturalized citizen, thus is--and definitely should be--entitled to reasonable access to the job market. By flooding the market with young foreign workers and young foreign students, the latter a deliberate plan by National Science Foundation to keep engineering salaries low as I've explained before, Congress is maintaining a program that is harming Mr. Liu and many other Americans.
  1. Some universities actively recruit foreign students, and Georgia Tech is likely one of them, as its proportion of foreign students is, I believe, substantially higher than average. In other words, Georgia Tech is crowding out Ms. Liu's father, and to add insult to injury, is making him pay more and more for his daughters' education. Ms. Liu states,


My tuition here [at Georgia Tech] is actually, even with the HOPE [Scholarship], more expensive than my sister's was, and she's only four years older than me.

  1. These considerations show that recent proposals in Congress to give "fast track" green cards to foreign students in STEM are thoroughly wrongheaded. We certainly don't have a shortage of STEM people, as Ms. Liu notices and is well documented by the Urban Institute study. Worse, the foreign students, like their American counterparts, are YOUNG, so they are exactly the type of worker that is displacing Mr. Liu.

I would add to this report, that other reasons for wantonly destroying the lives of large segments of the US population, especially US STEM workers, include the following:

- Drive income equality. This is a concept from the neoclassical school of economic thought. It stipulates that pay scales should be the same everywhere on Earth. It results in the destruction of entire sectors of the American job market. This is considered acceptable collateral damage by the proponents of this widely accepted economic theory. Do Americans matter at all, or are our lives no more meaningful than to serve as subjects in a global economic lab exercise?

What guarantee do I have that you will still be here in five years, no matter what happens?

-- the CEO of a small tech company, to me, during a job interview

- Restrict worker mobility. CEOs have long quailed in terror at the prospect of hiring an authorized worker in the US, only to have that person leave for another job. The high tech business world has struggled to end the tech workers' freedom to advance their careers by accepting a better position with a new employer. The CEOs have demonized "job hoppers" who work overtime to gain ground quickly and advance their careers. The reason this is more in evidence in the high tech world than it is in many other professions is that technologies have been changing quickly. If a worker is in a technical position, the company may have to retrain the worker every three to five years to keep pace with advancing technology. That's why American CEOs often prefer to hire a new worker, train them once at the beginning if need be, and then lay them off within a few years in favor of a fresh recruit from overseas, who is on an employer visa. In the eyes of the company, the US worker's purpose has been served. The tech company makes bank while practicing a policy of use them up and throw them away. The US workers are every bit as disposable as is a plastic beverage container. Is that a reflection of the US that everyone learned about in their civics classes at school?

It must be said that the workers brought in on employer visas are able to change jobs, but they must go through an enormous hassle first. Essentially, they are tied to a single employer at a time, to do a single job. It is simply not realistic for them to go into a job search in the event of the widespread unethical, abusive treatment of employees by US employers. This is the best guarantee the CEOs have of maintaining a low employee turnover rate, thus minimizing their costs associated with hiring and training new employees. The failure of high tech CEOs to constructively manage the fact of today's changing technologies represents a defacto return to the days of indentured servitude.

This is the real deal: a progressive voice; the integrity to tell it like it is.

We need to understand past mistakes in order to avoid repeating them in the future. And to design a recovery we need to delve into the systemic problems at the root of the credit crisis, as they could limit the effectiveness of any recovery proposal.

With so many systemic problems, any steps our government might take carry a great deal of political baggage, pork, and uncertainty of outcome. Any recovery emerges from a culture of corruption in the capital, where politicians cavort with corporations and operate within the confines of the Establishment and Washington consensus.

These people responsible for any solution, who represent not the people's best interests but those of corporations with the most influence. The people responsible for the economic crisis remain in positions of power and authority. No CEO at a major bank has been fired, nor has the Federal Reserve Chairman been replaced.

In stark contrast, banks and most other US business concerns are increasingly replacing US workers, bypassing them in favor of workers brought in from abroad on visas. Peebles' blog continues:

Also, our two party system limits the competition. If you don't like the incumbent, you have only one alternative, unless you happen to live in Vermont, whose Senator Bernie Sanders is a rare socialist (the media refers to him as an "I", or Independent.) See this article from The Nation by John Nichols for more on Bernie Sanders.

And, finally, this is from Bernie Sanders' January 29 interview with the Washington Journal on C-SPAN:

I am not a great fan of unfettered free trade. I think you need a good trade policy which reflects the interests of American workers. And I think that, if these large corporations want us to purchase their products, it's high time that they started manufacturing their products in this country, and create decent paying jobs here.

I believe very strongly that after eight years of giving tax breaks to billionaires, after a war in Iraq which costs us 10 billion dollars a month, the time is now to start investing in the American people, creating good-paying jobs, rebuilding our country.

Can Kossacks get behind the new progressive leaders who advocate an end to legal discrimination against American workers?  Please leave a comment to that effect if this is the case! There is noticeable opposition to providing opportunity and upward mobility for US STEM workers, even here on DailyKos!

Originally posted to tech ed on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 12:26 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  keep up the good fight. (12+ / 0-)

      Somebody has got to stop them from giving all of our jobs away.  

      They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20 ~~ Dennis Kucinich

      by dkmich on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 12:32:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Temp. work visas are only a tiny fraction (<1%) (6+ / 0-)

      of the work force. As I estimated in your diary yesterday, there likely are at most 1 million workers on temporary work visas in the US at any given time. Compare that to:

      1. 150 million regular US work force (citizens and permanent residents)
      1. about 15 million illegal/undocumented workers

      and then only does one get a proper sense of proportionality at stake.

      Your propaganda seems aimed at driving up Indophobia. India is a poor/developing country (which is NOT asking for dole outs) that heavily invested since its independence in education (despite being poor) which resulted in a decently educated work force, especially in the science and technology areas. That work force is being tapped by the global economy since India opened up its economy in the 1990s. That's the phenomenon at hand. Besides, India (which is a liberal/socialist open democracy with a functional media) has the world's largest middle class, which provides a fertile ground for selling US products once it's purchasing power rises. Alienating that middle class by overdone protectionism is NOT in the best interests of the United States in the long run.

      Progressives and Democrats should be careful not to fall for the red meat demagoguery by xenophobic propagandists like Lou Dobbs (and his followers such as the diarist), but instead consider solid facts along with short and long term progressive objectives (a combination of local and global) in reaching their views and positions on these matters.

      •  I have a bachelor's degree and 35 years ... (7+ / 0-)

        of technology experience. Can I move to India under a technology visa and get a job to replace the U.S. job I lost to an Indian H-1B worker?

        We didn't become one of the world's leading nations by lowering ourselves. We did it by raising the world.

        by edg on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:14:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You insult me. (8+ / 0-)

        Why is it too much to ask that Americans be employed?

        You try to assert that there is no complete solution to today's unemployment situation that could be gained by stopping the bypass that has been occurring since 1990. We could make significant gains against the unemployment rate, and we should definitely make those gains. There is no reason to leave this indefensible situation the way it is.

        •  It should be viewed in the overall context (3+ / 0-)

          of immigration, and you should have (and give to the readers) a sense of proportionality. In addition to lacking proportionality, your coverage completely ignores some positive aspects of these work visas; eg, these visas provide a channel for the US to get more skilled people as immigrants; some people that have been on these visas go on to start companies (once they get green cards and citizenship) that employ Americans (this actually happens in Silicon valley a lot), etc.

          The US should of course make sensible and sustainable trading and immigration policies that work to make the country better and stronger in both short and long runs (and, of course, any abuse and fraud of the system must be preveneted) but your coverage doesn't do proper justice towards that goal.

          If you ask me, the current caps on H1Bs (65000 for normal H1Bs, 20000 for academic) are quite sensible, and are balanced when viewed in the context of immigration levels (about 1 million new citizens naturalized every year.)

          •  Immigration is not the issue, and (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            you should know that.   Just like when my family came, there is still plenty of opportunity to immigrate.   What the problem is today vs. yesterday is that corporations are offshoring and looking for anyway to cut wages, jobs and benefits in this country.  If they have to exploit a few foreigners in the process, they don't care.

            I agree with tech ed.  Turning this into immigrant bashing is an insult and a whole pile of bull shit.

            They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20 ~~ Dennis Kucinich

            by dkmich on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 06:26:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  In short, you should stop fear mongering (2+ / 0-)
          via painting India as a villain. If you familiarize yourself with the data regarding temporary work visa provisions in the context of overall immigration, and outsourcing in the overall context of trade, it will become clear to you that India and Indians are the wrong culprits to blame for the economic woes of the US. If you presented sound analysis that considers the various facets involved in an objective manner, I would commend you. As of yet, you haven't done much beyond trying to instill fear in people's minds and drive up negative sentiments (which is shaping into Indophobia) towards India and Indians, much like Lou Dobbs does to Indians as well as Latinos (the latter on undocumented immigration).

          Progressives and Democrats should not tolerate fear mongering that targets groups of individuals, and similar to how we (rightly) demand that undocumented immigrants be treated humanely and fairly, we must also give and demand that a fair treatment be given to people that come here as temporary workers. And, we should be reality and facts based in assessing the underlying issues and policies.

          •  In short, you should stop fear mongering yourself (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            You are the one turning this issue into Americans vs. Indians instead of legals vs corporations.  

            We don't tolerate fear mongering, which is why you should stop. it.

            They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20 ~~ Dennis Kucinich

            by dkmich on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 06:28:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Indapohbia? (4+ / 0-)

        What crap and the fact that you reduce the argument to that sort of rhetoric is sad demagoguery (dare I say, of the sort Lou Dobbs practices).

        Protecting U.S. workers (of all races) against outsourcing is about fighting inequality, not promoting xenophobia.

        Capital can move with a speed and flexibility that leaves labor in the dust. It is on a constant quest to find the most 'efficient' workforce possible (read: workforce with the fewest environmental and social protections). This flexibility, without a corresponding flexibility of labor, perpetuates a race to the bottom.

        As soon as workers in India start demanding pay and protections that are comparable to workers in the United States, they will also be abandoned. You see this happening in China as companies start moving to Vietnam, a country with a more exploitable workforce.

        I don't have a huge problem with temp work visas, so long as they're being paid the same salary and benefits as U.S. citizens - but there are very good arguments to be made against outsourcing and against creating a permanent working class within the United States that does not have the same protections as citizens.    

        •  Unfortunately, (3+ / 0-)

          there ARE strong strains of Indophobia that have been evolving in the US over the last few years. There are some studies which have shown a rise in racism against Indians in the US  and Indian-Americans since Lou Dobbs started giving his unbalanced, disproportional and xenophobic coverage to temporary work visas and outsourcing.

          "Protecting U.S. workers (of all races) against outsourcing is about fighting inequality, not promoting xenophobia."

          Outsourcing is essentially buying services made available outside of US' borders. In that sense, it's similar to buying foreign goods. In order to get a perspective on this, one should at the trade (of goods and services combined) and account balance data. If you look at this wiki page List of countries by current account balance, while China has a huge trade surplus with the US, India actually has trade deficit with the US:

          Rank Country CAB USD, bn
          1 China 371.833
          2 Germany 252.501
          3 Japan 210.967
          4 Saudi Arabia 95.762
          5 Russia 76.163
          6 Switzerland 70.797
          7 Norway 59.983
          8 Netherlands 52.522
          9 Kuwait 48.039
          10 Singapore 39.157
          169 India -15.494

          I agree with you that there should be protections for workers (everywhere), but scapegoating and laying blame at India and Indians' feet, as these propaganda artists (like Dobbs, the diarist, his buddy here who goes by the handle "IT Professional") tend to do, is barking up the wrong tree if you actually start exploring the real data.

          •  There is plenty of racism (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nada Lemming, bgblcklab1, tech ed

            In this country, and some of it is tied to Dobbs-style rhetoric about "scary foreigners taking our jobs," but it's critical that people differentiate between Nativism and protecting the rights of workers (all workers, both here and in foreign countries). Blase accusations of racism have a 'cry wolf' quality to them.

            Yes, outsourcing is much like buying foreign goods. Goods created in a foreign country become cheaper to buy in the United States than U.S. produced goods for any number of reasons. Technical expertise is one possible reason, but a far more prevalent reason (and, indeed, why our trade deficit with China is so sharp) is because goods can be made in foreign countries using exploited labor and environmentally damaging processes.

            This is why folk like me are worried about outsourcing - it creates exploitative conditions in foreign countries as they "compete" for those jobs and it puts US workers out of work.

            H1B visas are a stickier issue, but people working in the US under these visas do not have the same rights as US citizens. This makes everything from access to courts to unionization much more difficult and, as a result, weakens the position of all US workers.

            I'm not personally opposed to H1B visas, but I'd like to see them used judiciously and we need to make sure that those workers are being afforded the exact same rights as their citizen co-workers.

            •  The way Sanjay Gupta was attacked here (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              came across to me as an instance of Indophobic sentiments manifesting to give you a specific example. Gupta (who is an American of Indian heritage) is a Democrat who worked for the Clinton administration on healthcare issues and yet when his potential candidacy was announced, people out here pounced on him and shredded him to pieces. Rep. John Conyers whom I used to greatly admire before the 2006 midterms (I lost some respect for him when he fizzled out once the Democrats got the majority in the house, and he got the gavel in the house judiciary committe)  took it upon himself to declare open opposition (which, as far as I know, no congressional democrat has done openly to ANY other potential Obama appointee) to a possible choice of Obama for cabinet using the attacks leveled at Daily Kos. Yes, Gupta made some factual errors in his coverage of Sicko (but he corrected the most glaring factual errors and actually apologized for those), but he was treated like an untouchable by the community in what seemed to me to be a grossly unfair manner.

              •  OMFG (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                There is absolutely something wrong with anyone who looks for bogey men under every bed and creates their own when they don't exist.

                They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20 ~~ Dennis Kucinich

                by dkmich on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 06:30:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  How about if you wait (6+ / 0-)

            until someone on this diary EXHIBITS xenophobia before you call them that name?  

            I agree with you that there should be protections for workers (everywhere), but scapegoating and laying blame at India and Indians' feet, as these propaganda artists (like Dobbs, the diarist, his buddy here who goes by the handle "IT Professional") tend to do, is barking up the wrong tree if you actually start exploring the real data.

            There is absolutely no evidence of that.  Where is India blamed for anything on any of these diaries?  

            I'd like some links that weren't HR'd.  

            "You're going to love my nuts!" -Norm Coleman in that Slap Chopper commercial.

            by Nada Lemming on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 02:14:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There was this diary recently (3+ / 0-)

              where Indians were called these epithets: "carpet baggers", "job thieves", scabs, among other names. That's a dangerous level of racism, completely undeserved and utterly unjustified.

              Fear mongering diaries such as the present one (with selectively presented) are driving up that negativity towards India and Indians, and must not be tolerated at Daily Kos.

              •  I saw those (0+ / 0-)

                and specifically asked you not to include HR'd comments.  They took care of themselves.  

                Those people, we agree, have some evolving to do before posting again.

                You do keep repeating those posts, today and yesterday, as if they are happening today.

                This leads me to believe you are not trying to have an open debate.  

                "You're going to love my nuts!" -Norm Coleman in that Slap Chopper commercial.

                by Nada Lemming on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 06:09:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not all of them were HRed. (0+ / 0-)
                  In fact, "carpetbagger" was in the story section itself. I'll try to make  a list of others that were either not HRed or not HRed enough for the comments to become hidden.

                  Also, it's not sound logic to claim "They took care of themselves". The people making those comments do not seem to be "troll" but seem to have developed a a deep pent up anger, which burst up in that diary. If you want further evidence, go ahead and search for India in the comments section. You will see so much overwhelming negativity that it's mind boggling. Something similar to this happened to Jewish people in the Nazi era Europe. Nazi propaganda used lies and exaggerations to create fear in the local populations to turn them into antisemites which eventually steamrolled into the Holocaust. A similar cultural strain is being built by these fear mongers, and Kossacks must absolutely not allow themselves into being goaded that way.

                  •  I agree (0+ / 0-)

                    that this sort of rhetoric is unproductive. I was unaware of much of it, so thanks for pointing it out.

                    That said, if I do a diary on this and manage to avoid all of the traps you cite, will you join me in an honest discussion?  Without the flame wars?  

                    "You're going to love my nuts!" -Norm Coleman in that Slap Chopper commercial.

                    by Nada Lemming on Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 06:07:06 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  That isn't racism.... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                Scab is universally applicable to all races, genders, creeds and as American as it gets.  

                You need to quit accusing people of things you can't back up.

                They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20 ~~ Dennis Kucinich

                by dkmich on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 06:32:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Well, good. Thank you. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              numen, Nada Lemming

              I didn't take this as an Indophobic thing, but as a jobs being lost to foreign workers thing. I am not anti-immigration- at all, ever. And I would personally love to expatriate (for no other reason than that it's a big world & I haven't seen too much of it)
              However, is it really wise to give away what little we do have left here in the US with so many Americans out of work? And is it really practical (on many levels) to suggest that Americans move to another country?
              -If there were enough work there, why would foreign workers come here to seek employment?
              -More people in other countries speak english than Americans speak another language. Tragic as this is (& I think it is sad), that places Americans seeking work in another country at a huge disadvantage.
              and the most significant reason is that very few people can afford to pick up & move to another country. It's a strain for most people to pick up & move across this country.

              Am I missing something here? I don't understand how anyone can argue with stopping the hemorrhage of jobs in the US. If this is about the zealous bigotry of people like Lou Dobbs and Pat Buchanan, I think that (jmho) is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

              "Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight." Albert Schweitzer

              by bitchinabluestreak on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 05:13:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Let me ask you a question. (0+ / 0-)
                There is a very good chance that your computer, keyboard, mouse, TV, refrigerator, tooth brush, shower curtain, book cases, boots, some clothes, kitchen appliances, some furniture, maybe your car, note books, portfolio, etc were not made in the US (probably most smaller items are made in China, and larger items like the car, if it isn't Ameircan, in Japan, Germany or Sweden) This certainly holds true for a typical middle class household.

                There are many questions that one can ask based on this observation. The most basic of all is why are individuals making these economic choices when, should they insist on buying only American made goods, the money involved here would stay and circulate in the US? One reason is that, if, for example, you were to insist that your computer be built exclusively from American made parts, it will probably cost you 10 times of what you'd pay for one made with Chinese or Taiwanese parts.

                I'll let you reflect on this as extensively as you'd like (and I may post more thoughts if I get around to), but here is the thing. A quick look at trade balance and accounts balance numbers as well as the number of temporary work visas (in comparison to immigration numbers) will quickly show that blaming India is misplaced blame.

                •  ok (0+ / 0-)

                  I have the same problem with cheap labor arbitrage in manufactured goods as with IT services...

                  And I would actually not have a great problem with the neoliberal, corporazi "flat earth" leveling of all wages on a worldwide basis...if the cost of goods and services came down at the same speed.  But they don't.  The whole idea is to remove the American middle class by lowering their wages while increasing their overall cost of living.  With most of the plunder going to the top one tenth of one percent, but a tiny fraction to the scabs who get to be upper middle class by betraying their brothers in both countries for their own gain.

                  But I realize some people are so stupid as to buy into the idea of getting a silk shirt for $20 instead of $80, without realizing they can't buy either one because they have no job.

                •  I'm sorry it took so long to reply (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tech ed

                  I'm not saying that we should only buy American made things, Iceweasel.
                  Or that it's ok/ not ok for parts to be made here or there & assembled in the opposite. Most of our furniture comes from Europe, our electronics stuff from Asia and we have 1 Japanese car & an American one. I think it is typical. (I can safely say we don't give it much thought although I have before when buying clothes) Having said that, that doesn't improve the price. It only improves their profit. Also having said that, there would be a wall-eyed fit at my house if imports were restricted or taxed any more.
                  It's also interesting re the cars. I wanted the Nissan. No other style would do & the price was right. With the minivan (which we had to have for the dogs), a Toy or a Nissan was more than we wanted to spend.

                  What I'm saying is that we've come to a pretty grave state of imbalance. And the circumstances that led to that imbalance- that corporations benefit while people lose jobs and the country loses it's tax base; both in corporate taxes and individual workers, are detrimental to the US. It won't matter much how much cheaper stuff is if people are out of work or flat broke. Is it a good thing when the only people who can come in here and buy property are people from other countries?

                  My point was not to blame India (or anywhere else). I personally feel that they are exploited as much-or more, than anyone. My point was that when things get tight, corporations shouldn't be enabled & encouraged to be so heavily into outsourcing/ importing workers. I think it's counterproductive. Yes, it's a boon to corporate profits but who will buy  these products if no one has a job or if the job they have doesn't provide disposable income beyond the bare necessities? How are Americans supposed to make a living and survive? Should we "trade places" and we become the third world for awhile? Seriously, if workers from another country are working in US jobs and the only people who can afford what they produce are people in that other country, but not us; the host country, for all intents & purposes- does this make sense? In India's case (as an example), they have much greater access to much cheaper goods (Tata cars, for an example) than we do. The money they make here goes a lot further over there. Our money won't buy much over here anymore. They will live 25 people in one house or 8 people in a one bedroom apartment. Can you see the average American doing that? Do you wanna?
                  My own particular thought in my reply was USAA, the insurance company.  Or you could use ATT as well. (in ATT's case, I don't think they are Indian, but Indonesian & sometimes Scots or Irishmen) Having "foreign" workers may somehow increase their profits because they are paying lower wages, but they are losing business because their customer service can no longer help the customers. The people they've replaced are supposed to work where? In the first place, it is impossible (literally) to do business with people you can't communicate with and in the second place, it is harming the local economy by increasing unemployment. (I ditched both Compaq & ATT because I simply could not get tech support. We are considering dumping USAA for the same reason.)
                  It seems to me that it's a matter of practicality. If the economy is robust, then immigration should be increased. When it is poor (pardon the pun) then it should contract some. How many relatives would you allow to move in with you permanently- as their sole means of support when you couldn't even feed & house your own immediate family? Shouldn't our immediate family- our own country, come first and we share what we have left? It's not like we have a glut here.

                  The problem is not who comes from where, who does the work or where goods come from. The problem is the corporations who destroy everything & everyone in their path to make more. The problem is greed and exploitation.

                  This is part of a bigger issue. Not only is it harmful to the US economy, these companies are avoiding environmental and safety issues as well again, just to increase their already obscene profits.

                  (I could go off on a rant about maquilladors as well, but that's a different issue than this (outsourcing v. importing workers). I think this way of doing business harms far more than it helps)

                  "Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight." Albert Schweitzer

                  by bitchinabluestreak on Tue Mar 10, 2009 at 12:09:25 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Also (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tech ed

            I should point out that your numbers are not about trade relationships with the United States.

            India has an overall trade deficit with all foreign countries, but in 2007 (I couldn't find 2008 data), it has a trade surplus with the US of 6 billion (link)

            •  The numbers I gave above (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              are for total accounts balance for various countries with the US (i.e. accumulated outstanding balance). As of October 2008, India had a trade deficit with the US.

              Here were trade deficits for 2007 (second column gives total for that year):

              Top Ten Countries with which the U.S. has a Trade Deficit

              For the month of December 2007

                                                                 Year To Date
                                                 Deficit in       Deficit in
                                                  Millions         Millions
               Country Name                       of U.S. $        of U.S. $

               China                             -18,791.97      -256,269.48
               Japan                              -6,592.92       -82,798.67
               Mexico                             -6,510.78       -74,257.76
               Canada                             -4,655.91       -64,673.72
               Federal Republic of Germany        -3,873.63       -44,712.47
               Venezuela                          -3,650.68       -29,697.36
               Nigeria                            -3,430.87       -29,983.56
               Saudi Arabia                       -2,703.89       -25,227.20
               Malaysia                           -1,975.91       -21,110.15
               Italy                              -1,675.47       -20,900.56

              Compare China's $256 billion surplus with the US compared to India's $6 billion that year. Which figure do you think should be paid serious attention to, if leaking of jobs is your concern?
          •  I have not used any type of scape-goating (3+ / 0-)

            as you claim.

            The tech lobbyists have, however, used an extensive, and a big-money disinformation campaign against US workers to promote their agenda of bringing in ever-increasing numbers of workers from abroad.

          •  how about human chattel goods? (0+ / 0-)

            Does the trade deficit include offshored wages?  Or remittances (and I believe India is passing Mexico for that)?

            Corporations no longer define people as humans.  In my last several gigs, we are only referred to as "resources", never as people.  So if we are going to be treated as chattel goods to be traded across borders with impunity, we should be included in the trade statistics.

      •  4 million tech workers (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        numen, tech ed, IT Professional

        and your estimate of 1 million temps is not supported in your post, but let's accept that number.  

        The vast majority are in IT and not in school, so let's make it 750k, which is closer to the numbers I am familiar with.  

        1 in every 5 workers in IT are temporary workers.  

        What do you suppose is the wage and job market looks like with a 20% increase in supply?  

        And with demand drying up to nothing?  

        How many temporary workers do we need again?  

        "You're going to love my nuts!" -Norm Coleman in that Slap Chopper commercial.

        by Nada Lemming on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 02:08:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  IT work is highly transportable (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          and (entry-level to mid-range) IT skills aren't that hard to acquire for most educated people  around the world (all it takes is some logical thinking paired with learning some specific software/hardware tools, plus a decent command of English to be able to interface/interact well). THAT, in my opinion, is at the heart of why it's hard (and nearly impossible to guarantee) to have high levels of job security in that area.

          If it isn't covered by work visas, it will get outsourced readily to India, and if not India, to other countries. I think work visas are a better option than outsourcing because temporary workers spend a fair portion of their salaries in the US (i.e pitching in for econimic growth), and pay taxes and pay into social security and medicare/medicare which stays in the pool for Americans (since the temporary workers that return to their home country cannot make claims for these programs.)

          •  Temporary work visas (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Quicksilver2723, numen, tech ed

            are often the first step to outsourcing all the jobs in a department.

            It is called Business processing Outsourcing, BPO, and is a very popular business model of outsourcers, who, not by co-incidence, are the largest seekers of H-1B workers.

            •  The job ad at the top of this diary (3+ / 0-)

              suggests that exact process.

            •  All things considered, (0+ / 0-)
              If India were draining the US economy so badly as you keep peddling, how come India has a net account balance DEFICIT with the US instead of a SURPLUS?

              You are a dangerous fear monger who is goading people to turn them into Indophobes using gross exaggerations, not unlike what the Nazis did during the Holocaust against Jews.

              •  because (0+ / 0-)

                Because they are not counting wages and remittances as part of the imbalance.

              •  The point that you are consistently failing (0+ / 0-)

                to grasp, and I believe this is intention on your to grasp, and I think the failure is intentional on your part, is that the US STEM workers have been subjected to bypass. They have been victimized through the use of an inexcusable performance mythology to the effect that Americans do not do Math and Science. This quote from John McCain reflects a typical Republican attitude. They will intentionally destroy the lives of millions of Americans in order to claim that they have done something beneficial for the company. The end result of their plan is that they will, finally, pay themselves larger bonuses.

                That is the fact that confronts us. This diary is not against workers from other countries. that is a spin that you are attempting to put on it. You appear to believe that your tactic, in redirecting the dialog will work. You discredit your readers in that attempt to derail an important and necessary discussion of the STEM professions in the US, and the way US workers have been suffering from discrimination by US employers.

          •  We need to have tax codes reworked so that (4+ / 0-)

            the companies operating in the US will be taxed at a higher rate for outsourcing work to sources overseas. Any company that operates here and expects us to buy its products will need to share the burden, not dodge their responsibility to support the system in the US.

            If the situation does not correct itself, the rate of taxation would need to increase. Eventually, the US companies would stop going for the lowest possible price on Engineering, development, support and operations. They would back shore and use local workers for the jobs, because it wold benefit them financially to do so.

            Bernie Sanders during an January 29 interview with C-SPAN

            ...the issue that you are raising though, about the fact that when we go to stores, almost - more often than the not, the products that we're buying are not made in the United States, that our manufacturing capability has collapsed in recent years. We've lost millions of good-paying jobs, and when you go shopping, it's China, and China, and China, and maybe occasionally it's Mexico. But this issue speaks, in my view, to the disastrous trade policies that we have. That's permanent normal trade relations with China, NAFTA, the fact that American corporations have shut down plants all over this country, thrown millions of workers out on the street, moved to China then they're bringing their products back into this country. And that is not just blue-collar jobs, it's increasingly white collar jobs as well. So I am not a great fan of unfettered free trade. I think you need a good trade policy which reflects the interests of American workers. And I think that, if these large corporations want us to purchase their products, it's high time that they started manufacturing their products in this country, and create decent paying jobs here.

      •  People can support without being anti.... (0+ / 0-)

        If you want to put concerns for India over concerns for US eligible workers, then maybe you want to offer one of them your job.  

        Because you over extrapolate this into Lou Dobbs doesn't make you right.

        They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20 ~~ Dennis Kucinich

        by dkmich on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 06:22:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  typical neoliberal lying with statistics (0+ / 0-)

        Trying to pretend that one million H1Bs has no effect because there are millions of burger flippers who are not affected is typical Rovian logic.

        There are only about four million IT workers and most H1Bs are in IT, which means a huge percentage of American IT workers (perticularly those over 40) have had their careers destroyed and have had to take jobs making as much as 80% less.

        And I am vastly amused at the latest attempt to play the martyr race card, "Indophobia".  Put simply, half the H1Bs came from India because, due to centuries of British rule, most Indians had English as a second language.  Most ofthe time, an H1B was from India.  That is slowly changing as other countries teach English as a second language and as corporations find the well has run dry in India and there are fewer qualified IT candidates there since they have all been sent offshore already.

        (And I'm not convinced that there are only one million.)

  •  Fresh out of college, (19+ / 0-)

    bright eyed and bushy-tailed, my son landed an IT job at a big Boston construction firm. They promised him full time employment in 9 months. 8 2/3 months later, they outsourced the entire department to India.


  •  Evidently we all aren't in this together (9+ / 0-)

    Sad, but true.  The bottom 90% are, but the top 10%, generally speaking, still don't care.

    "Peace cannot be achieved by force. It can only be achieved by understanding" Albert Einstein

    by BigAlinWashSt on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 12:42:14 PM PST

  •  A job ad on the internet? (7+ / 0-)

    Don't believe everything you read.  Any crank can post any unsubstantiated crap on the internet.  

    Funny you point to those STEM students.  Especially that one whose parents are from China.  Because it seems like her parents are exactly who you oppose.  Can you be more clear on why the daughter of the Chinese immigrants supports your case?  None of them blamed H1Bs for their problems, curiously enough.

    And honey, when your source is "Prophetic News" and end times crap, you know you have gone way over the bend.  But I can see why you didn't post the version of the content that comes from NumbersUSA, which is classed as a nasty group by the Southern Poverty Law Center

    Here's more from SPLC on this:
    New SPLC Report: Three Leading Anti-Immigration Groups Share Extremist Roots  

    Three Washington, D.C., organizations most responsible for blocking comprehensive immigration reform in 2007 are part of a network of groups created by a man who has been at the heart of the white nationalist movement for decades, according to a report issued today by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

    The Nativist Lobby: Three Faces of Intolerance describes how the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) and NumbersUSA were founded and funded by John Tanton, a retired Michigan ophthalmologist who operates a racist publishing company and has written that to maintain American culture, "a European-American majority" is required.

    Folks, before you get in bed with Lou Dobbs and his ilk, please think about the company he keeps.

    Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of logic. --The Onion

    by mem from somerville on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 12:51:57 PM PST

    •  I've noticed... (14+ / 0-)

      ... that a lot of the discussions here on outsourcing of jobs degenerate into xenophobia, which undermines any legitimate argument that a few people might be trying to make.

      Pretty sad, really.

      [M]issile defense is a theology, not a technology, for many conservatives. -- Lt. General Robert G. Gard, Jr. (ret)

      by Page van der Linden on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:01:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  mem from somerville likes to make bogus (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jfern, Jane Lew, IT Professional

        accusations of all types. That is usually the full extent of anything that could be even loosely termed xenophobia -- unless it's there and I haven't noticed it.

        •  Back to personal attack that quick, eh? (6+ / 0-)

          That seems to be all you have.

          •  He has no basis for his allegations. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            numen, Jane Lew, IT Professional
            •  No basis? (7+ / 0-)


              I have worked at a company where the Engineering department was led by Russian VP's and Directors. The engineers were, for the most part, also foreign-born. The company was famous - or infamous - for targeting US techs and bringing their careers down. Needless to say, the foreigners were put on a pedestal. Their careers usually went like gangbusters -- like the Russians. The company was widely-known for their discriminatory practices.

              Why would Russians want to destroy STEM fields as a possible career path for Americans? Can anybody come up with a reason?

              Could it be due to the fact that they hate us intensely, and would love the opportunity to defeat us in a military conflict? Russians are the worst enemies we have.

              by tech ed on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:11:20 PM EST

              Targeting US techs and bringing their careers down? Russians are the worst enemies we have?  Yeah, that's all warm and fuzzy and inclusive.  I don't know how I could have misinterpreted that.

              Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of logic. --The Onion

              by mem from somerville on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:33:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK now I get (0+ / 0-)

                what you're on about.  I hadn't seen that.  

                That is not typical of this side of the argument, though IMO.  

                "You're going to love my nuts!" -Norm Coleman in that Slap Chopper commercial.

                by Nada Lemming on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 02:22:03 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That is my experience with that company. They had (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  IT Professional

                  a reputation for being anti-American, and I am not afraid to talk about that.

                  Needless to say, they failed. It was some time ago.

                  In regards to the Russians - this is political, not cultural. My opinion is that I think we will see more of them very soon. Early summer, or whenever the snow is gone. Right now, they are pushing for a new treaty. Does that wound political to anyone else?

                  Question: What kind of idiot would confuse a political situation with xenophobia?

                  mem from somerville, I think you are up on this one.

                  •  uninvited suggestion (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    Since a lot of the opposition is using xenophobia as a cudgel, it would be wise to keep the comments focused on labor, wage suppression and indentured servitude of the workers who do come in here. Those are all legitimate issues, and no one will hear them if nationality of country of origin is even brought up.  

                    Trying to help, hope I did.

                    "You're going to love my nuts!" -Norm Coleman in that Slap Chopper commercial.

                    by Nada Lemming on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 06:04:27 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Why is it difficult for you to accept that aspect (4+ / 0-)

                of reality? There are such companies. It's no more an indication of xenophobia than is the tendency to notice what the weather is like on any particular day.

                I was warned before I went in there, but I did not listen. The warnings were, unfortunately, valid.

                Question: If I'm so xenophobic, then why did I

                1. leave the US by myself
                1. travel on a different continent alone
                1. avoid other Americans as a principle - to provide more opportunities to meet people from other countries, and other cultures (diversity)
                1. find a job where there were few or no other Americans
                1. stay for over three years
                1. learn to speak, read and write another language without any urging or any particular direction to do so -  but in order to enjoy career advancement in a foreign culture and to have a more thorough appreciation for a different culture
                1. learn a smattering each of three additional languages besides the one previously mentioned
                1. take every opportunity to travel and enjoy various cultural experiences while abroad
                1. marry a foreign national whose first language is other than English?

                I think that you are talking about somebody else, not me. I do not have any xenophobic tendencies. Please put an end to your insults.

              •  Yes, targeting US tech not because they (0+ / 0-)

                are American or white or anything besides higher paid.  

                If you are going to turn every conversation about wages and jobs into a paranoid conversation about discrimination, I would suggest you spend some time in the BLS and check out what is actually happening in the US labor market.

                They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20 ~~ Dennis Kucinich

                by dkmich on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 06:38:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Bullshit (7+ / 0-)

              And that does NOT give you the right to launch YET ANOTHER in your long line of personal attacks and inappropriate hide rates.

              Stop it.

              If you don't want to respond reasonably, just DON'T respond.

              Let your opponents state their case, as is their right, without attempting to denigrate them.

              You only discredit yourself when you do that.

        •  A few thoughts (5+ / 0-)
          1.  When user #197654 who's been here since about november starts to call out user #7787 who's been here pretty much from the start of DKos and starts calling him a troll...user # 197654 is treading a very shaky ground to say the least.
          1. Ever since the BFJ (Better Future Jobs) crowd and the rest of the new wave of anti-h1b posters showed up (last fall) and started posting one after the next inflamatory and often misleading diary about H1b visas, the tone of debate has gone considerably down hill here
          1. If you'd like to see what the anti-h1b crowd is really about check out: (note the ad and podcast from BFJ in left sidebar)
          1. It's also no coincidence that the new wave of anti-h1b posters here all showed up last fall. That's when FAIR and Numbers USA (designated Hate Groups) started a new astroturf group called "Coalition for Future American Workers".  

          Working together with groups like the Programmers Guild, FAIR and it's anti-immigration allies set up the group to take advantage of economic instabilty and fear of job loss to further its anti-immigarnt agenda.

          So perhaps the newer members here should tread lightly on the accusations of "corporate shill" and "troll" ... there's much to be learned about the anti-h1b movement and all it's various ties and associations ... and I'm working on uncovering it all

          •  Maybe the focus should be on EEO - where it (3+ / 0-)

            belongs. US citizens and authorized workers are being bypassed for the jobs. It is a civil rights violation.

            the anti-h1b movement and all it's various ties and associations ... and I'm working on uncovering it all

            Do you maintain that Senator Sanders is also guilty of the same ties and associations - presumably to nefarious, bad-guy organizations? What about Senator Durbin? Do you see racism and xenophobia in his actions, too? They have both opposed H-1B visas to some extent, at least, in Congress. They have definitely opposed unlimited numbers of H-1B's.

            Are you sure that the problem you are investigating is only tied to H-1B visas?

            Solis just launched an investigation into a Fla employer's use of construction workers from abroad at a time when over 1,000 local union workers were available. That would be bypass. Local workers were ignored for the sake of the employer.

            It's here, in one of previous diary posts.

            Maybe Hilda Solis is a part of some hidden conspiracy? Is that where your theory runs?

            I think you need to get more exercise. Get the blood moving.

          •  Isn't the H[indu]-1B Lobby Discriminating? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tech ed

            What happened to 200,000 American programmers that used to have careers in the I.T. industry?  If I opened a BBQ stand in Harlem, and found a way to not hire any minorities at all, wouldn't people think that something fishy is going on?

            So how do the mostly Indian immigrants get away with displacing all Americans, especially minorities, in corporate I.T.?  Perhaps they are the nepotistic bigots?

            The only conspiracy you will uncover is the scheme by the upper-caste groups of India to monopolize and corrupt the H-1B visa program at the expense of American developers.

            Call me politically incorrect, just don't call me a coward.  

      •  Please show us some (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        numen, bgblcklab1

        because they're few and far between.  

        I've been reading these diaries for a week straight and the abusive posts are all on the corporatist, Ayn Rand side of the aisle, and they're the ones calling xenophobia.  

        "You're going to love my nuts!" -Norm Coleman in that Slap Chopper commercial.

        by Nada Lemming on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 02:18:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's no coincidence that there is usually a (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        monumental effort on the part of many of the opposition to make accusations of xenophobia.

        Is the mere mention of the word a reasonable basis to assume that there really is xenophobia somewhere in the environment?

    •  Right on time! The apologists have arrived (7+ / 0-)

      So being against outsourcing is akin to "getting in bed" with Lou Dobbs... Nice.

    •  Then you must be in bed with John McCain (5+ / 0-)

      and the company he keeps!

      Americans do not do Math and Science...

      That pretty much sums up your view of the topic, doesn't it? Why not spend the time to try to come up with a valid logical process before you post this kind of stuff about a respected academic and Computer Science Professional?

      Also, it seems you are not aware of the fact that Norm Matloff is a respected Computer Science Professor at UC Davis. He cares about the career success of his students, and keeps stats on how they do after graduation - during their professional careers. He is one of the few people worth listening to when it comes to the visa programs. He's not what ever it is that you are suggesting that he is.

    •  Ludicrous (9+ / 0-)

      This issue isn't about immigration. It's about companies driving wedges into the workforce and exploiting workers. (In other words, stop parroting corporate talking points.)

      Lose the pejoratives. Honey.
      Just because something was reprinted on a questionable site doesn't make it wrong. Look at the original source -- in this case a foreign news service.

      Member, The Angry Left.

      by nosleep4u on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:08:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Being against (7+ / 0-)

      some forms of overseas job recruitment and being opposed to outsourcing is very, very different from being against immigration and immigrants.

      Confusing the two is disingenuous to the extreme.

    •  You are xenophobic (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      numen, Jane Lew, tech ed, IT Professional

      You don't want Americans to have jobs, and other countries aren't so permissive in letting foreigners come in and take all of their jobs. People have tried to apply for their old job after it was outsourced overseas, but they don't hire Americans.

      "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

      by jfern on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:37:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think you know what that means (4+ / 0-)

        But nice try.

        Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of logic. --The Onion

        by mem from somerville on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:39:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's just as legit as your use of the word (3+ / 0-)

          Which you are using to destroy the American worker, whom you despise.

          "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

          by jfern on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:44:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wow (5+ / 0-)

            Jump the shark much?

            That is a blatant personal attack.

            How can you justify that level of hatred and slurring based on a few comments on a blog? It is juvenile behavior.

            This really shows the level of thought that you possess. Which undercuts any other point you may make.

            •  Oh yeah (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tech ed

              "This really shows the level of thought that you possess"

              That wasn't a personal attack at all.

              "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

              by jfern on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 02:06:07 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No it wasn't (4+ / 0-)

                it was an observation on your level of argument. I should have added "in this case" since i don;t know you anymore than you know the person you just viciously smeared for disagreeing with you.

                But hey, if I apologize to you, will you apologize to mem?

                I am willing to be 'a bigger person,' are you?

                Maybe we can then actually have a conversation instead of slinging poo, as appears to be the favored method of discourse on your side of the debate.

                Which is awfully tough to respond to on anything BUT the personal level, once you sunk it down there.

                What say you?

                •  Kind of hard to have a conversation (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  numen, tech ed, IT Professional

                  When the other side tries to claim that you're a xenophobic for suggesting that perhaps 85,000 7 year temporary work visas that were intended to be for skills that there was supposedly a shortage of make sense at a time when the unemployment rate calculated by pre-1982 methods is approaching 20%.

                  "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

                  by jfern on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 02:16:43 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Why? (3+ / 0-)

                    Disprove the facts....if you can ....

                    don't attack the poster.

                    If you are right, why is that so hard?

                    Why do you have to LEAP to the lowest level of discourse possible if you are so right? Are you capable of expressing your thoughts in an intelligent and reasonably respectful manner?

                    If so, why the attack?

                    •  Well, I get really sick of the xenophobic card (4+ / 0-)

                      It's not the people who are on the visas that are the problem, it's the companies that would rather not hire an American, and would rather use the visas to drive down wages. Naturally, the people making these decisions don't hire cheaper versions of themselves.

                      In any case, any sane person should conclude that we don't need to hire 85,000 people on 7 year temporary visas a year for supposed skills shortages right now. For example, they could ditch the 65,000 slots that don't require a graduate degree.

                      "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

                      by jfern on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 02:26:40 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  There you go! (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Duke1676, Nightprowlkitty

                        Was that so hard?

                        Next you might, if you so choose, try to understand WHY people might view it as xenophobic. There are larger issues at stake here, you know. And other legitimate POV's.

                        However, i have just used up all of my energy on the subject ....fighting, so I am going to go now. I look forward to future civil conversations with you!

                •  WTF is up with these loons, buhdy? (5+ / 0-)

                  I thought I would find a truthful and helpful diary and discussion here, but instead the diarist and supporters are bent on hyperbole and namecalling.

                  There are some serious issues WRT this subject, too bad these folks aren't working on them.

                  I'll know now not to visit diaries by this user now, they're not very good.

                  •  They are in a reactive mode (4+ / 0-)

                    Caused by fear of losing their jobs, I suppose.

                    It is a legit issue as you say, but they are just hurting their cause. Fear is the only reason I can come up with for their unreasonable behavior, since they seem like smart folks otherwise.

                    In one of the diaries the admins had to come in and tell them to remove multiple hide rates, even!

                  •  Namecalling (4+ / 0-)

                    started by the naysayers - xenophobia was the first name thrown.  I saw someone throw ot the white supremecist label yesterday.  

                    Tech Ed has in the past, and did today, let  emotions take over.  

                    That's unfortunate, because this is a great series of diaries, and they are very educational.  If skeptics came on here with a civil motivation to have a discussion, it would be beneficial.

                    What we get instead is a lot of oversensitive "You are Lou Dobbs" diatribes.  That's understandable - Lou Dobbs hates brown people - I get it.  

                    He has in the past associated with the CCC and that's despicable.  

                    Lumping everyone on this side of the issue in with Lou Dobbs is just as stupid as calling someone a racist if they agree with Pat Buchanan on some unrelated populist issue.  

                    "You're going to love my nuts!" -Norm Coleman in that Slap Chopper commercial.

                    by Nada Lemming on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 02:36:46 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Ironically (3+ / 0-)

              in that comment I merely asked for clarification and asked people to consider the source.  

              Neither happened.  But I'm used to that in these diaries.

              Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of logic. --The Onion

              by mem from somerville on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 03:04:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  catch 22 (0+ / 0-)

      Yes, it is a catch 22, in that places like Lou Dobbs and NumbersUSA are the only places where the labor side of the issue can get a hearing.  And when published in places like those, the "zenophobe" label gets pushed on them even more.

      The problem is that there are no liberal places to publish anything giving the workers side of any issue.  All Liberal media (which should side with Labor) have been taken over by the Neo-Liberals (who side with corporate execs just as much as Bush).

      And the corporazi point of view is constantly trying to take over even the blogs such as this, through ad hominem attacks such as playing the race card ("racist zenophobe") whenever they start losing the argument on points.

      So those of us who support labor over the corporate fatcats will keep on trying here until you troll-rate us into oblivion.  But by the time you get us out of here, those of you who are Americans will have lost your jobs...

  •  Great post (10+ / 0-)

    But get ready to be called Anti-American!!, Racist!!, Rush Limbaugh!! Horrible person!! Inflamatory loon!! etc. etc. etc.

    Some people here seem perfectly content to look the other way while corrupt politicians and greedy corporations keep decimating this economy by outsourcing thousands upon thousands of AMERICAN jobs.  I forget the name of the idiot who keeps telling everyone to "call the government" and complain if you see anything illegal going on...BWAHAHAHA, call the government? They're the worst crooks!

    We keep losing 650,000+ jobs every month in the US. And  the whole H1-B bullshit is, and will continue to be, a disaster for us.

  •  Until 'your' job is affected, no big deal, right? (7+ / 0-)
    It's the old 'until they came for me...' problem.

    This country is screwed because those in good shape could give a @#$% about those who aren't.

    I for one, am fed up with the 'cluck cluck' well fed, fat American jerks who post on here that 'it is not so bad.'

    What is wrong with you people on Kos?  Too much tenure?  Too much medical training at schools your mommy and daddy paid for?  Too secure, so you could care less about others? is what I say.

    •  I know it. There was possibly one set of (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Quicksilver2723, numen

      mitigating circumstances back in the late eighties, early nineties. The prospect of everyone working together in moving the US from a manufacturing base to a tech based economically really had me engaged. I was thinking that everyone in the US could graduate in a tech field, train on systems, and then get a satisfying career in technology. Many others were of the same opinion, as I recall.

      Soon, the same people who had said that we could actually benefit career-wise from a shift away from manufacturing and other industry were saying that they had no use for us - for the people who had been so recently duped into supporting the change! So much for business regulating itself!

      We can not, and will not, retrain ourselves every five years or so for a new career. People need to have a stable, reliable base of income throughout their lives. They also need to have other activities outside of their careers, their retraining, their trying to make up for the financial well-being that they lost by changing careers again, etc. etc. etc.

      The educational industry in the US is probably as much to blame as many of the others. When they need more students, in order to pump up enrollment, or if private tech schools need to pump up profits, what do they say? Keep the same career... please remain in the field where you already have training and experience? NO!!!!!

      They are some of the greatest proponents of forcing everyone to change careers at regular intervals!

      Now, while the greatest percentage of the population in the US is unemployed since 1973, which career path is there left to follow? Green tech, or low-level green jobs? There is nothing available. The movers and shakers have left us high and dry this time. It's time for them to be held accountable for what they have done. It's time for them to provide remuneration to the public for the damages that have been caused by their short-sighted, reckless, and self-serving policies.

    •  Too much intelligence (4+ / 0-)

      to buy into simplistic, knee jerk arguments?

      But after your thoughtful comment, I am suddenly on your side!!!

      Amazing how effective telling someone to fuck off is in advancing your arguments! You have convinced me.


    •  Well said. (4+ / 0-)

      I'm an IT guy, never been laid off (knock wood).

      But I've been watching this bullshit for a decade -- corporations doing ANYTHING to get cheap overseas labor.  I pulled my money out of Bank of America (one of the biggest offenders).  I write the CEO of any company I encounter that offshores.  If I deal with overseas customer service personnel for an American company, I complain.

      And now these banks, that were the worst offenders, are all going out of business!  What about those "cost savings?"  Huh?  How'd that work out for you, Wachovia?  Bank of America?  Huh?

      I've fucking had it.  These damned executives are making HUGE money while trying to employ as many overseas workers for substandard wages as possible.

  •  H1-B needs reform, but is not all bad -Suggestion (4+ / 0-)

    I know numerous stories of folks having been screwed over. They are understandably angry.

    The system does need reform. I have hiring managers make the "assumption" that the H1-B will be cheaper and prefer to choose their candidate from that resume pile. But to say that happens more often that not is waaaay too simplistic.

    For example, remember that basic institutional discrimination (usually couched by questioning whether the employee would "fit" with colleagues) tends to work AGAINST the foreign folks.

    So I agree with the sentiment expressed here (and shouted down, to some extent) that the problem may not be as prevalent as is implied by some who have been unfortunate enough to be affected by it.

    The resolution is simple...though enacting it would be tough.

    The NFL (normally not any sort of model for labor issues) has a fairly simple system for letting a company ("Team") retain (hire) free agents (Employees). They use a "franchise player"/"transition player" concept, where the team declares that these players are so important that the team would be materially damaged by letting them go seek other work in the free market. The NFL basically says, ok, you can retain this player/employee, but you must pay him the average salary of the Top 5 players at his position.

    In this model, the NFL discourages the employer from retaining employees who should, by rule, be eligible to return to the free marketplace.

    The Dept of Labor could, if it wished, require the company to pay higher payroll taxes or salaries or benefits or SOMETHING to companies that hired/retained H1-Bs. If the could get through the sea of lobbyists to sign such a bill.

    "We were keeping the homeland safe." ...If you'd stop calling our country the "homeland", then I'd stop comparing you to 1930s Germans.-LiberalThinking

    by malharden on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 02:08:37 PM PST

    •  Problem pervasive in Bio-Medical academia (4+ / 0-)

      What other country literally has millions, Millions of foreigners knocking on their doors?  Someone here said 20,000 per year in academia, which I have heard too!  I hear H1-Bs, L1s are unlimited in Academia, as they are limited to 65,000 per year in Industry.  Big Pharma wished to hire cheaper foreign labor and they colluded with the Universities to say there is a shortage of bio-medical scientists...which there is and was not.  Think of it 20,000 foreign DNA people per year!!!  Outside of what America would normally generate...which is the appropriate number of biomedical scientists for the market...Seriously, do you think the people that bring us Viagra and Lunesta commercials have anything on their mind but the highest profit level through cheap immigrant labor???  I know of Asian scientists that were recently sent home due to lack of funding.  I know of Indian post-docs volunteering for 6 months after they lost their job.  We need a sensible science and immigration policy...not an indentured servitude!

  •  Jobs of the Future and Jobs of the Past (0+ / 0-)

    There is no work an American can do cost-effectively.

    Get a clue.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 03:12:46 PM PST

  •  Outsourcing, H1-Bs have been a killer (5+ / 0-)

    I have nothing against internationalization of the software business, but I can personally attest from past employment that outsourcing places a significant downward pressure on salaries without actually raising productivity. It's the kind of mid-management hocus pocus that makes a company look like it's saving money but actually costs it overall while squeezing productive and loyal US employees. Maybe that's not true everywhere, but it was certainly my personal experience.

    Wage equalization only works when it means bringing up wages, not reducing them.

    Some people are intolerant, and I CAN'T STAND people like that. -- Tom Lehrer

    by TheCrank on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 04:03:46 PM PST

  •  I would like to thank everyone for commenting (3+ / 0-)

    today, whether we are in agreement on the issue or not.

    The participation by members of the opposition is extremely valuable. Thank you for showing up and sharing your opinions. I think that, relative to past discussions, there may be a greater degree of  agreement on some of the issues.

  •  What I continue to believe... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Businesses relying upon foreign labor, temporary labor, or sub-contract labor are being allowed to  live like rich kids on trust funds, mismanage business, and then lay off labor to polish up that bottom line for investors.

  •  The pro--H-1B Lobby Is Delusional (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tech ed

    Enough with the xenophobe card -- the occupational apartheid imposed by the mostly Indian H-1B forces needs to end.  There is no proof that Americans can't compete with the imports, but plenty of proof that the well has run dry in India and we are not getting the best and the brightest, but the greedy and desperate. These shills have convinced clueless CIOs and CTOs that American developers are lazy, cocky, and expensive, and what they really need is a nice bunch of cheap and docile H-1Bs from Mumbai or Delhi.  The denigration of the American programmer needs to stop, and we need to regain our place in industry before we become extinct in it.

    And the threat that the I.T. jobs will get sent to another country if we don't import the labor is another canard presented by the H-1B lobby.

    Software is not a finished good like a shirt. There are massive transaction costs associated with dealing with a workforce on the other side of the world.

    For instance, I was talking with a neighbor today that works for a mortgage company that has outsourced their loan processing to India. At night the offshore team processes the work, and if there is additional info needed from the borrower, they can send them an email.

    My neighbor has to review EVERY email because the grammar from the Indian workers is atrocious. Where is this overhead accounted for in the financial statements?

    And it is commmon knowledge in the I.T. business that offshore software projects have to be reworked and fixed in America, because the work is so shoddy. Many companies have "black budgets" for this cost.

    Seriously, can a country with 40% illiteracy rate be the sole supplier of programmers? Can't we get kids from the American ghettos and train them?

    And isn't the H-1B lobby throwing the next generation of Americans under the bus for short-term gain?

    I have a 7-yr old daughter, and I want her to be able to be a programmer if she wants. How is she going to get in the business if it is dominated by indentured servents from a country that does not share our values? Isn't there a big elephant in the room that we are ignoring -- the decimation of Americans from a once highly regarded industry?

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