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There is a common misconception among those who favor bypassing available, qualified American workers for the STEM jobs in the US. Some either really believe, or they prefer to say, that the number of STEM workers who enter the country each year to replace American workers is only 65,000.

The real numbers are much higher than that, and they are readily available online. The State Department issues the visas. A few of the visa programs require a certification process, amounting to absolutely no protections for US workers, from the DOL. The DOL official policy, in fact, is that US workers can be replaced even if they are available and want the job.

Refer to this previous diary for the relevant information.

Most companies can explicitly discriminate against American workers by recruiting and hiring only H-1B visa holders. As the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) has said:

H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of a foreign worker.

The current economic conditions are as follows:

North Carolina unemployment has reached the highest level on record.

IBM layoffs begin.

...IBM has been among the tech sector standouts, garnering profits of $4.4 billion in its fourth-quarter earnings announced in January, an increase of 12 percent over the same period a year before—which some claim was earned on the backs of laid-off workers and offshored jobs.

American worker replacement that has been ongoing for 20 years. Let's have a look at the figures from the State Department website today.
Visas that are used to place workers from abroad in professional positions include: H-1B, H-1B1, TN, E-3, L-1, and J-1.

Total visas issued in these categories from years 1989 through 2008: 7,053,656.

This means that, if the visas were used to push Americans out of the job market in the STEM fields, the way they are commonly being used today, then up to 7 million US workers have already been forced to leave their professions since 1989 and take other jobs.

Immigration Classifications and Visa Categories

Class of NonimmigrantDescription
E-3Australian professional in specialty occupation
H-1BTemporary worker of distinguished merit and ability
H-1B1Free Trade Agreement worker (Chile/Singapore)
J-1Exchange visitor
L-1Intracompany transferee (executive, managerial, and specialized personnel continuing employment with international firm or corporation)
TNNAFTA professional
H-1ATemporary worker performing services as a registered nurse

Here's the cumulative effect of all the visa programs. These are the visas issued for the categories that could be used to replace American workers who are in STEM positions.

State Department figures for the total visas issued 1989 - 2008.

YearE-3H-1BH-1B1L-1J-1TNTotal
1989---13,648139,354-153,002
1990-794-14,342146,549-161,685
1991-51,882-16,109143,649-211,640
1992-44,290-17,345145,020-206,655
1993-35,818-20,369151,281-207,468
1994-42,843-22,666166,6394232,152
1995-51,832-29,088171,44534252,399
1996-58,327-32,098171,164115261,704
1997-80,547-36,589179,598171296,905
1998-91,360-38,307192,451295322,413
1999-116,513-41,739211,349484370,085
2000-133,290-54,963236,837906425,996
2001-161,643-59,384261,769787483,583
2002-118,352-57,721253,841699430,613
2003-107,196-57,245253,866423418,730
2004-138,9657262,700254,504908457,149
20054124,09927565,458275,1611,902466,899
20061,918135,42144072,613309,9512,972523,315
20072,572154,05363984,532343,9464,091589,833
2008*2,961129,46471984,078359,4474,761581,430
total7,4551,776,6892,145880,9944,367,82118,5527,053,656
*FY2008 data should be considered preliminary and subject to some slight change. Should any changes by required they would not be significant.

Cap Count for H-1B and H-2B Workers for Fiscal Year 2009

H-1B

The H-1B visa program is used by some U.S.employers to employ foreign workers in specialty occupations that require theoretical or technical expertise in a specialized field and a bachelor's degree or its equivalent. Typical H-1B occupations include architects, engineers, computer programmers, accountants, doctors and college professors. The H-1B visa program also includes certain fashion models of distinguished merit and ability and up to 100 persons who will performing services of an exceptional nature in connection with Department of Defense (DOD) research and development projects or coproduction projects. The current annual cap on the H-1B category is 65,000. Not all H-1B nonimmigrants are subject to this annual cap.

The actual number of H-1B visas issued each year is more than double the official cap of 65,000.

H-1B Employer Exemptions

H-1B nonimmigrants who are employed, or who have received an offer of employment, by institutions of higher education or a related or affiliated nonprofit entity, as well as those employed, or who will be employed, by a nonprofit research organization or a governmental research organization are exempt from the cap.

H-1B Advanced Degree Exemption
The H-1B Visa Reform Act of 2004 makes available 20,000 new H-1B visas for foreign workers with a Master's or higher level degree from a U.S. academic institution. For each fiscal year, 20,000 persons who hold such credentials are statutorily exempted from the cap.

H-1B1
6,800 visas are set aside during the fiscal year for the H-1B1 program under the terms of the legislation implementing the U.S.-Chile and U.S.-Singapore Free Trade Agreements. Unused numbers in this pool can be made available for H-1B use with start dates beginning on October 1, 2008, the start of FY 2009. USCIS has added 5,800, the projected number of unused H-1B1 Chile/Singapore visas to the FY 2009 H-1B cap.

An H-1B1 is a national of Chile or Singapore coming to the Unites States to work temporarily in a specialty occupation. The law defines an H-1B1 specialty occupation as a position that requires theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge. The beneficiary must have a bachelor's degree or higher (or equivalent) in the specific specialty. The combined statutory limit is 6,800 per year. 1,400 visas are set aside annually for nationals of Chile, and 5,400 for nationals of Singapore.

Exchange Visitor (J) Visas

Overview - About the Exchange Visitor Program

The Exchange Visitor Program is carried out under the provisions of the Mutual Educational and Cultural Exchange Act of 1961, as amended. The purpose of the Act is to increase mutual understanding between the people of the United States and the people of other countries by means of educational and cultural exchanges. International educational and cultural exchanges are one of the most effective means of developing lasting and meaningful relationships. They provide an extremely valuable opportunity to experience the United States and our way of life. Foreign nationals come to the United States to participate in a wide variety of educational and cultural exchange programs.

The Exchange Visitor Program is administered by the Office of Exchange Coordination and Designation in the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs. Visit the Exchange Visitor Program to learn more about program eligibility requirements, regulations and much more. At the conclusion of their program, Exchange Visitor program participants are expected to return to the home countries to utilize the experience and skills they have acquired while in the United States. Learn more about exchange related programs and opportunities.

In carrying out the responsibilities of the Exchange Visitor Program, the Department designates public and private entities to act as exchange sponsors. Designated sponsoring organizations facilitate the entry of foreign nationals into the United States as exchange visitors to complete the objectives of one of the exchange visitor program categories, which are:

   * Au pair
   * Camp Counselor
   * Student, college/university
   * Student, secondary
   * Government Visitor
   * International Visitor (reserved for U.S. Department of State use)
   * Alien physician
   * Professor
   * Research Scholar
   * Short-term Scholar
   * Specialist
   * Summer work/travel
   * Teacher
   * Trainee

US workers have virtually no right to work in the US at all, according to current labor practices. It has been widely acknowledged that there is no need for additional skills in the US. It is also widely acknowledged by all interested parties that the visas are in use primarily to fill rank and file positions that could easily be performed by local US workers.

EEO is a right that is guaranteed for all Americans. Our rights are being violated by the same CEOs who prefer to destroy the careers of Americans so that they can justify paying themselves higher bonuses each year.

Can Kossacks help lobby Congress to pass laws to change this travesty before the STEM fields are completely lost as viable career paths for US citizens and green card holders?

Originally posted to tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 10:58 AM PDT.

Poll

Is it fair to allow US employers to use the visas and bypass US workers?

19%32 votes
65%107 votes
1%3 votes
12%21 votes

| 163 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  tip jar (17+ / 0-)

    My schedule is very tight today. Please leave a tip in support of American workers, but I won't be able to respond to comments for very long.

    "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

    by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 10:55:53 AM PDT

    •  tipped (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jane Lew

      I have a very different perspective on the issue than you, but I've tipped you for a fine diary filled with facts and information.  I learned a lot.

      •  Thank you! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jane Lew

        "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

        by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:09:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your numbers are flawed. Can you correct? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joy sinha

          Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

          by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:12:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The numbers are good. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KatHart, Quicksilver2723

            You need to look at the State Department's website. They have the same figures.

            I think you are trying to pursue an agenda. You fail to acknowledge that the US workers are being replaced in significant numbers, and that there is no need for the skills that are being brought in from other countries.

            "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

            by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:15:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Lots of those numbers aren't jobs at all. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

              by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:16:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  numbers are flawed because expired visa numbers (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Khun David
              are apparently not factored in. Until and unless you factor those in, you are posting misleading statistics.
              •  Once the US workers were displaced, (0+ / 0-)

                since the US company's CEO decided to use a visa to fill the position, they needed to get other jobs. They could not wait around for years to get the job back once the company had used up the services of the visa-holder.
                They had to retrain themselves, at their own expense, or make do in survival occupations.

                "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

                by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:49:33 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  How many temporary workers are working (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lefty Mama, Roadbed Guy, Denversk
                  in the US at a given time? That's the main question here. That number is likely close to 1 million (at most 2 million, in the worst case, depending on the turn over and time limits on the L1 visa which I do not know much about), and not 7 million.

                  That 1-2 million number is what should be compared to:
                  -- 150 million American workers
                  -- 15 million undocumented workers
                  that are present in the economy at a given time.

                  H-1B's in particular, cannot stay on that visa for longer than 6 (+1 year possible extension which you mentioned last time), which caps the total H-1Bs present in the US to about half a million at a given time.

                  •  The question is this: (0+ / 0-)

                    How many US workers trained for a career in one of the STEM fields, and was then displaced, forcing him or her to find another job or another occupation in order to survive?

                    When you look at the issue from the correct perspective, that of the US workers, you begin to realize that it does not matter how long the worker from abroad stayed in the US. A STEM worker from the US was displaced, and needed to change careers or take a survival job. That is the concern that we are facing today.

                    "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

                    by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:31:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  The E3 Visa (0+ / 0-)

              I don't see you having any explanation for the E3 visa so here you go

              The E-3 specialty occupation visa is a temporary work visaE-3 Specialty Occupation Non-Immigrant Visa available only to Citizens of the Commonwealth of Australia, who will perform services in a "specialty occupation" in the United States. E-3 work visa is usually issued for two years at the time. The visa holder can renew his/her visa indefinitely in two-year increments. When the visa period ends, the individual has to leave the country.

              The E-3 visa classification is numerically limited each year. Generally, a maximum of 10,500 E-3 visas are issued annually. This limitation applies to all initial E-3 applications made overseas and to all change of status to E-3 applications made through the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS). The dependents of principal E-3 applicants will not count against this annual limitation.

              I also agree that your numbers are way off and you are actually trying to pull a Lou Dobbs on the readers here. By representing the raw data you are actually misleading the misrepresenting the issue.

              I'd rather have liberty with NO security, than security with no liberty..

              by Denversk on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 12:57:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thank you for adding the information. I didn't (0+ / 0-)

                want the diary to get too long. Also, the E-3 is currently among the smallest, in terms of the number of workers who are brought in. I wanted to be sure to include H-1B1, since it's sometimes a source of confusion in the general employer visa discussion.

                The real spelling of the visa's name is E-3. If accuracy is a concern for you, maybe you should take the trouble to spell the name of the visa the way the State Department spells it.

                "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

                by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:28:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  A lot more labor/low education jobs are taken (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Khun David, joy sinha

    by foreigners. Why not stop them? Why not stop all immigration?

    Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

    by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:08:39 AM PDT

    •  Why not let the economy recover by (6+ / 0-)

      putting US workers back to work? This idea of replacement in order to cut costs has never worked historically, it has only failed.

      Keep in mind that when Henry Ford wanted to sell more cars, he paid his workers more money. They bought the company product, it increased his sales volume, and the rest is history. He invented mass production, and his cars created the need for the Interstate freeway system, the oil industry, and more. It was a big hit.

      He did not shave costs in order to try to produce higher profits.

      He used a win/win approach that has since fallen by the wayside in the US job market. Why can't learn from history?

      "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

      by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:13:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What evidence is there that there are American (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus

        workers to match up with each of those jobs?

        Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

        by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:15:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Is confession considered evidence? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicksilver2723, Jane Lew, tech ed

          http://www.youtube.com/...

          I do not see this being an immigration issue. I think that is a very emotional stance to a very rational issue. If there is a need for foreign workers and those workers are available than great. However if we have a struggling economy then why take action to increase the struggles?

          The other part that irks me is the fact that business requires taxes and government support to operate. Without our willingness to contribute commerce would come to a standstill. In my opinion this requires business that operates domestically to support it's stakeholders i.e. the American people.

          History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. Abba Eban

          by Allsock on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:36:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's not evidence... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus

            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

            by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:37:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Are you bieng serious? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Quicksilver2723, Jane Lew, tech ed

              Are your posts related to honest discourse or simple agitation? I am not asking this to be an ass but what is your motive here?

              History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. Abba Eban

              by Allsock on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:39:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's not evidence of what I asked for. That's (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Timaeus

                some lawyer saying how to use the system. Two different things. Please reread what I asked.

                Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:40:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That is a bit arbitrary as evidence requires (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Quicksilver2723, tech ed

                  information and as far as I know these statistics are not independently tracked or at the least not publicly disseminated.

                  My question is what evidence is there that are not qualified US applicants?

                  A declaration from the company? It would seem that this video does show an active desire to usurp the immigration requirements. If there are no qualified candidates why would this be necessary?

                  History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. Abba Eban

                  by Allsock on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:47:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  All this video shows is a seminar. How many (0+ / 0-)

                    companies were present? What % is that when compared to all of the companies and employers in the US?

                    There are plenty of shortage industries and the DOL does track those stats.

                    Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                    by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 12:12:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Maybe you should prove the H1B workers (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Quicksilver2723, tech ed

                      who have replaced real live  breathing American citizens in the IT industry are  recruited because there are not enough Americans able to do the job.

                      Sometimes the American citizen is even expected to train the H1B replacement.

                    •  The point bieng is that violation of the (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Quicksilver2723, tech ed

                      spirit and maybe the letter of law happens. How many companies is the question. How wide spread is this issue? I am not sure but I would like to know.

                      It seems this issue has turned into a pro and anti-immigration issue. In my opinion it should be a corporate responsibility issue. I am sure there are people out there whos support of reform is solely due to a xenophobic mindset however this does not change the importance of the issue. I personally am pro-immigration and truly believe it is vital to the success of the planet. I believe immigration should be handled from the perspective of where a person wants to live on a semi permanent basis not as a function of a companies ability to save a few bucks. From my personal experiences and what I have read the current program rewards no one but the company over the long term and seems to setup a wage slave enviroment.

                      History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. Abba Eban

                      by Allsock on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 12:36:58 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  The issue is that the firm, among many (0+ / 0-)

                      others, was providing instruction to an unlimited number of US employers, to all who chose to seek it out. Any US employer who wanted to follow this recipe for economic disaster could have done so.

                      They could have found the clip on the Internet, gone to another seminar, or gotten the same advice from another law firm. Your post has no merit. Please refrain from posting nonsense.

                      "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

                      by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:34:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  They provide some evidence at this point in (0+ / 0-)

                    the PERM process, but it is all rigged.

                    "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

                    by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 02:05:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  I should add that there is no (0+ / 0-)

            evidence that there are workers available for each and every category of position that requires at least a bachelor's degree. The H1B.

            Or that Americans can magically know the inner workings of a multinational they never worked at. L1.

            Or that a summer visitor is taking a job away for an American.

            Or that there are enough doctors. Or engineers.

            But what there is evidence of is that there are lots and lots of immigrants coming here with less than a bachelor's who take labor jobs that lots of Americans COULD do but the focus on Dkos is on white collar, mostly white, jobs and as soon as you propose ending the larger number of immigrants you get silence.

            Not that I agree with ending any immigration.

            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

            by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:40:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Sometimes the specialized categories (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus

        are necessary -- for example, thanks to BushCo policies, we've fallen behind on stem cell research especially in universities that take federal funds. It might be necessary to bring in researchers from Korea, India or Europe to help pick up the slack until our university science departments can catch up in educating the next generation of researchers. In addition, a researcher educated in US schools might be too valuable to return to his/her native country right away, especially if he/she is in the middle of an important project at the time of graduation.

        But there should be a way of judging on a case-by-case basis whether a specialized visa is required, rather than just continually increasing the limit like raising the blinds at a Texas Hold 'Em table. And there also has to be a better definition of the term "temporary", both in terms of visa holders and contract workers. Are you really a "temp" if you stay at a company for 2-3 years, or if you return to the same job you were laid off from but without benefits?

        Hey Republicans -- GO GALT YOURSELF!!!

        by Cali Scribe on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:22:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Or, the US employers could put the program into (0+ / 0-)

          high gear by bringing US researchers up to speed. That is the technique that worked in the past. To call that approach ineffective would be to deny the fact that the US has always dominated any significant STEM research field in the past.

          I think that there may be a point to bringing in some instructors, but I can't understand why that would need to happen on a scale of any kind. It looks to me as if you are trying to use fear to urge people to support your side of the argument. If the US is behind today, we will catch up quickly. It has always been that way in the past. The taxpayers simply spend the money, and the program is accelerated on an ad hoc basis.

          "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

          by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:38:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  btw, you are attempting to use (0+ / 0-)

      a false dichotomy. Nobody except you has said that nobody would come in to the US, only that the replacement would stop, and that there would be fairness in the hiring and retention processes by US employers.

      "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

      by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:17:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  All immigrants who work take jobs from citizens. (0+ / 0-)

        Do you only care about white collar jobs?

        Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

        by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:18:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  To paraphrase Shakespeare (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus, tech ed

          The poster "doth protest too much, methinks."

        •  Really, are you sure? (0+ / 0-)

          I've seen stats along the line that each immigrant worker actually creates something like 1.07 (or some number > 1) of *new* jobs above and beyond his or her own .  . . .

          The implication being, that they are actually creating not destroying employment opportunities for the nativists . . . .

          •  Is the use of the term 'nativist' a slur? (0+ / 0-)

            destroying employment opportunities for the nativists . . . .

            You appear to throw some insulting and injurious terminology into your content, and with reckless abandon! Do you love to hate others? Do you hate people who disagree with your opinions?

            "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

            by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 04:05:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The immigrants who are such (0+ / 0-)

          outstanding innovators could set up their own companies to employ hundreds or thousands of US citizens and green card holders. They would base their product lines on their innovations, and they would provide most of the seed capital themselves.

          I think that would work out.

          "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

          by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:55:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The L1 isn't taking a job from an (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    whenwego, joy sinha

    American. It's an intra-company transfer for a multinational corporation.

    Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

    by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:09:23 AM PDT

    •  Wrong. You could not be any further off. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Quicksilver2723, Jane Lew

      The visa is being used to replace American workers.

      "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

      by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:18:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually it SAYS it's for intra-company (0+ / 0-)

        transferees so what part an I wrong about?

        Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

        by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:20:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What happens with L1s (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Brian B, tech ed

          At least in the context of software development/enginerring firms is that the company transferring their worker in is - a contracting house that provides bodies to work at companies.

          I know that at the bank I had worked for WiPro had used L1s to bring in workers more workers.

          In theory the L1 is so a multinational company to bring in workers to work at their company to perform work for their company. However, if what the company does is to contract out their workers to other companies you end up with the loophole that bypasses H1B.

    •  So, if the multinational corporation has an (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brooke In Seattle, KatHart, tech ed

      opening in one of its US offices, transfers in an employee from, i don't know, Hong Kong, and then hires another person in Hong Kong to fill the now vacated position in Hong Kong ... would you or would you NOT agree that this represents "taking a job from an American".

      I don't know what to say.

      by UntimelyRippd on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:19:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No. It wasn't any persons job in the first place. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus

        The L1 is for execs and managers familiar with the company and workers with specialized knowledge of company processes.

        What random US worker is qualified?

        Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

        by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:21:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you are funny. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tech ed

          I don't know what to say.

          by UntimelyRippd on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:24:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What's funny is that you can't show that (0+ / 0-)

            an American worker is qualified for that sort of position.

            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

            by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:25:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  what's funny is that you live in some fantasy (4+ / 0-)

              world where corporations are limited by a few words in a government regulation.

              what you can't show is that a corporation can't cook the requirements of a job in such a way as to disqualify any of the available American workers.

              did you know that Bernie Madoff was not running a Ponzi scheme? here's how I know: he could not have been running a Ponzi scheme, because it's against the rules to run Ponzi schemes. and if he had been running a Ponzi scheme, surely the auditors would have discovered it, and reported it, and then he would have had to stop, because, as i noted, it's against the rules to run a Ponzi scheme.

              thus, all of those investors who lost everything can sleep better knowing that, for whatever reason they lost their investments, it wasn't because Madoff was running a Ponzi scheme. because that's against the rules.

              I don't know what to say.

              by UntimelyRippd on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:48:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  This information is a bit misleading (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus, Roadbed Guy, joy sinha, Denversk

              I work in the Big Oil Energy sector and overall we have probably 7,000 people working in countries that are not their home country. Of that figure 5,000 are Americans working in International locations.

              The reality is that if you are running a company that operates in hundreds of countries around the world - you need to manage your talent globally and be able to move them around. The use of the L1 visa allows us to bring international employees to the US with specific knowledge but give them an opportunity to be exposed to the Corporate environment, to work standards in the US and prepare theme to return to their  countries better rounded and able to replace those US employees that are currently in the senior roles in their home organizations.

              To include L1 visas as proof af displaced Americans is very misleading. In some countries to allow the US employees to work there, we've agreed to accept a specific number of locals in the US for development.

              In addition, when we go on campus to recruit persons as summer interns, many of the top students on campus in the fields we are most interested in - are non US citizens - - we are in a competitive industry where top talent is a strategic advantage - and all companies in our industry would be prepared to apply for H1B visas for these students, if it meant we were getting the "cream" of the University talent.

              I think if the Obama presidency is to leave a mark - it will be on getting American students back in the top tier. There is a lot more to this debate than Visa numbers .

              •  Much of this post is misleading. Including (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Timaeus, Denversk

                but not limited to the L visa issue but what I find most interesting about your comment is the fact that thousands of US workers could be described as "foreigners who are taking jobs from native workers".

                Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 12:09:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  American TAs would help American Students Suceed (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tech ed
                Universities are the worst offenders for subjecting vulnerable students to foreign students who are doing he best they can. The material is complicated enough without adding the difficulties of a language barrier for undergrad students needing clarification.

                30 years ago one of the prime determinates of how well students did in a given course was weather the TAs were native speakers.

                I TAs I couuld understand who did extreamly well, of Indian, Japanese, and Russian ancestory, but the Foreign Student TAs, not so much, and they were a disaster for a lot of students. Yet the Universities import them by the thousands to work for 17,000 a year.

                And by the way, I am not saying that we need to eliminate the H1B visa program, just that the program should be changed so that the H1B is not a capative of the company.

                •  TA's are most likely on F visas, not H (0+ / 0-)

                  besides, Americans just don't want to do science or engineering much anymore (at least not to the extent needed); it's really difficult and makes their brains hurt . . ..

                  •  It sounds like you're on the same page with John (0+ / 0-)

                    McCain:

                    Americans do not do Math and Science.

                    What he meant was this: in order for him and his buds to make the money that they would ideally be in a position to make, he and they would be allowed to fill all tech positions using the employer visas. He did not mean that Americans are incapable of performing Math and Science.

                    "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

                    by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 04:19:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Your post uses ancedotal evidence. (0+ / 0-)

                Most countries in the advanced industrialized world do not allow the arbitrary transfer of employees to the detriment of their own workforce.

                "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

                by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:39:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Not sure what the visa requirements are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Khun David

          in other countries, but my uncle spent several years in England as a vice president of a specific division in his company; I assume that the L1 is limited to cases such as that in the US, for example if Qantas wanted to send a vice president here to oversee North American operations.

          Hey Republicans -- GO GALT YOURSELF!!!

          by Cali Scribe on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:27:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That and workers with specialized, particular, (0+ / 0-)

            knowledge of the companies processes.

            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

            by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:28:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  The intention of the law may have been (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bluehawk

            such originally, but in fact the company using the L-1 is able to transfer anybody at all to the US. In fact, many companies with an office overseas simply hire for the US positions, and then ship the new hire directly to the US (at the same rate of pay as in the country of origin.)

            Untenured, low-level employees can be brought on board specifically to fill rank and file positions in the US along with high-level execs and others with specialized knowledge. The oversight that is needed is simply not being provided.

            "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

            by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 04:23:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Many of those J categories aren't taking (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timaeus, whenwego, joy sinha

    jobs at all much less from Americans.

    Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

    by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:10:12 AM PDT

    •  Do you any actual FACTS to share with us, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brooke In Seattle, Jane Lew, tech ed

      or are you going to simply make your case by stating things authoritatively?

      I don't know what to say.

      by UntimelyRippd on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:19:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The facts are in his list. Look up. J's aren't (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus

        just for workers.

        Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

        by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:22:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  thank you for ... um ... proving nothing. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tech ed

          I don't know what to say.

          by UntimelyRippd on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:22:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Here's what I actually said: (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Quicksilver2723, Jane Lew

          These are the visas issued for the categories that could be used to replace American workers who are in STEM positions.

          I didn't say that there is a one-to-one correspondence between the number of available visas and the number of displaced US STEM workers, only that the visas are available.

          The J-1s are used to displace US/GC (US citizen and green card holder) MDs who need to be placed residency programs or their careers will stop abruptly. This needs to end.

          "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

          by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:25:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What I see is that you're focused on a small (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus, Khun David

            number of white collar positions for some reason.

            As the J visas are time limited and many of them force you to leave the US for years after you're done with it your complaint is empty. There aren't enough doctors, there aren't enough engineers, etc... Study after study shows this.

            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

            by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:27:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The studies are fabricated. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Quicksilver2723, Jane Lew

              There is an overabundance of every type of skill in the US. Even Vivek Wadhwa admits that there is no problem, in terms of a skills shortage, with the number of grads from US Universities.

              If there is any need for persons of extraordinary ability, we have the O-1 visa. We will always have room for those who are needed in the US.

              "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

              by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:54:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Evidence of the fabricated studies (0+ / 0-)

                please.

                Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                by JayGR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 12:07:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Reading the results of the studies is enough (0+ / 0-)

                  evidence. The studies usually make distorted claims to the effect that there are no US workers available to take the jobs that are open. In reality, US workers are being driven from their professions in significant numbers. Many of them are required to train their replacements before they go into the unemployment line - with no future prospects.

                  What evidence do you have that US workers are not being displaced in significant numbers, and have been for twenty years? You do nothing to provide the support for your side of the argument that would be needed in rational discourse.

                  "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

                  by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:43:54 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  So there's a shortage of positions for MDs now? (0+ / 0-)

            Wow, that goes against *all* statistical evidence . . .

            •  Yes, there is. US/GC are being (0+ / 0-)

              bypassed because someone decided to bring in additional MDs that were not needed. You should check up on the issues.

              "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

              by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:53:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You might be talking about the (0+ / 0-)

              MDs who have completed their residencies. The discrimination against US/GC is happening at the point where MDs (grads) enter a residency program. I suppose its ironic that the US/GC who are needed are being bypassed for the residency positions that are available.

              The residency programs might be expanded in the near future, but thousands of US/GC who have graduated from medical school, aka MDs, have already been refused a place in a residency program. At the same time, roughly 5,000 MDs from other countries, who got their degrees in schools abroad, have been admitted into the US residency programs each year.

              "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

              by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 02:10:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I suppose you'll have to provide the links . . . (0+ / 0-)

                this is what I find . . .

                Among the findings:

                Family medicine had the lowest mean salary ($185,740) and the lowest percentage of filled residency positions (42.1%) among U.S. graduates.

                The highest mean salaries were in radiology ($414,875) and orthopedic surgery ($436,481); those specialties also had the highest percentage of filled allopathic residencies (88.7% and 93.8%, respectively).

                The mean starting salary of a radiologist was 2.7 times that of a family physician.

                Residency fill rates in emergency medicine (79.7%), otolaryngology (93.0%), and pediatrics (72.8%) were slightly higher than would be predicted by their salaries ($255,530, $327,399, $185,913, respectively).

                Starting salary in a specialty was also directly associated with the residency fill rate (r=0.68, P=0.03), although the relationship was not as strong as for overall mean salary.

                link

                So, according to those statistics, with percentages below 100% in bold, US residents were not filling the allotted slots.

                So, what to do?  Leave the slots unfilled leading to looming physician shortages? Or recruit foreign MDs (most who remain afterwards?).

                Seems like a no-brainer to me . . .

                •  The process governing the residency slots (0+ / 0-)

                  is not straightforward. There is no oversight on the program directors who set up the requirements and place MDs into the residency slots. With better management, the US/GC MDs who need residency slots and the program directors who place MDs into the slots could be brought together.

                  Did your research provide any stats regarding the US/GC MDs who are without residency positions each year? That is the real concern. It is not how high or how unrealistically the program directors are able to set the requirements for entry into the programs - resulting in unfilled positions. You will not convince me that the unfilled slots are meaningful in any way. The sector needs a more workable system for placing the MDs into residencies -- meaning more government oversight.

                  "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

                  by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 04:12:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Can you please (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Khun David, iceweasel

    subtract out the ones who aren't here anymore and give us an actual number?

    Misleading with stats once again....

    Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of logic. --The Onion

    by mem from somerville on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:25:25 AM PDT

  •  Do you have expired visa numbers? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joy sinha
    tech ed, I think you've made an honest and fine effort here and I respect you for that. But, I think what you need in your second table is a column of how many of the visas in those categories expired in the respective calendar years. Subtracting that number from the number in the "Total" column would then give the number of net new visas issued in a given calendar year. You can then sum up the net visa numbers for each year to get your final count.

    The tallies without factoring in expired visas are misleading.

    State department website listed only the visas issued in a given year from what I saw in a link you gave in an earlier diary (I couldn't get to the data from your link in this diary), but not the expired visas. Do you know how and where we can find the latter info? I'll google and post if I find something.

  •  Tech ed (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timaeus, mem from somerville

    how many times are you going to do misleading diaries on visas and bypass?

  •  Oh (0+ / 0-)

    with all the letter/number combos, I just assumed this would be a diary about an eventual bird flu epidemic.  Sorry, my bad.  ;)

    It's a great diary although I disagree on some key points.  We use visa workers because they are cheaper and don't demand all those high-priced benefits.  They have no sense of entitlement.  It's the price of globalization, which is necessarily going to cause mass unemployment among the American middle class - until we either institute protectionism, or we build up the rest of the world to our standards (both of which have very significant downsides).

    Steny Hoyer = a slam dunk argument for term limits

    by jlynne on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:34:26 AM PDT

    •  There are persons with a sense of (0+ / 0-)

      entitlement in the picture, and they are the US CEOs who insist that they be able to access unlimited numbers of workers who are dependent upon their jobs to remain in the US. Nothing could be clearer than that.

      Globalization has really fallen to its knees. It has been demonstrated that the principles behind free trade have their weaknesses. We are in the middle of that scenario right now. There is no greater good. There is only a means to the end for the plutocracy.

      "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

      by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 02:04:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Look it's "Buddy"! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timaeus, mem from somerville

    This guy has a habit of posting anti-immigration posts with disfigured facts to support his argument. Just check out his other comments on posts.  In one of them he cited Center for Immigration Studies (a conservative think tank).
    He kinda' has a vendetta against visas, particularly H-1s.  You're right Buddy, if we got rid of h-1s the economy would turn around immediately. BTW, apparently h-1s are keeping are keeping a lot of people out of work particularly 'tech ed' from getting a job.
    It's okay Tech ed, just breathe and relax.

  •  Um... (4+ / 0-)

    These are not cumulative numbers.  I have a friend who had to reapply for her H-1B visa regularly.

    So the actual number that you are bemoaning should be 580K, not 7M+.

    Khun David aka Crisis Corps Volunteer

    by Khun David on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:45:55 AM PDT

  •  Thank you for reading the diary, and for (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pucklady, Jane Lew

    contributing your comments, everyone!

    I got to go!

    "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

    by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:50:30 AM PDT

    •  If you want to report visa statistics (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus
      in the future, please find and provide expired visa numbers as well. Have a fine day!
      •  I have provided the relevant (0+ / 0-)

        statistics. If anybody disputes the fact that US workers are displaced when the company decides to use a visa to fill a position, then they should say so. It does not matter how long the visa lasts or how long the worker from abroad stays in the US.

        Each visa represents another possible Phil in Denver. A displaced worker with bills to pay, family to support. No further proof is needed.

        What proof do you have that no damage is being done at all to the US workforce? You have no evidence in support of your side of the discussion, I suppose.

        "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

        by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:48:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Here. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Brian B, iceweasel

        Here is a list of VISA classifications which are allowed to work in this country. Any work under any other VISA is illegal. It comes from the Social Security Administration - Visa Classifications that Allow You to Work in the U.S. - along with the numbers of workers in the country under those classifications which comes from (PDF) 2008Nonimmigrant Admissions to the United States: 2007 - provided by the Department of Homeland Security. Descriptions are from either document link provided.

        NOTE: The Department of Homeland Security counts admissions so the number of expired visas is a non-issue with the data below.

        Visa ClassificationDefinition2007 Totals
        E-1Treaty trader or Treaty investor51,722
        E-2Treaty trader or Treaty investor177,920
        F-1Foreign academic student, when certain conditions are met787,756
        H-1BTemporary workers with "specialty occupation"461,730
        H-1CRegistered nurses participating in the Nursing Relief for Disadvantaged Areas49
        H-2ASeasonal agricultural workers87,316
        H-2BTemporary worker75,727
        H-3Seasonal nonagricultural workers5,540
        IForeign information media representative43,928
        J-1Exchange visitor, when certain conditions are met443,482
        K-1Fiancé of a U.S. citizen32,991
        L-1Intra-company transferee363,536
        M-1Foreign vocational student13,073
        O-1Temporary worker in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics36,184
        O-2Temporary worker in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics10,349
        P-1Temporary worker in the arts, athletics in an exchange or cultural program53,050
        P-2Temporary worker in the arts, athletics in an exchange or cultural program4,835
        P-3Temporary worker in the arts, athletics in an exchange or cultural program11,900
        Q-1Cultural exchange visitor2,412
        R-1Temporary religious worker with a nonprofit organization25,162
        TNProfessional business worker admitted under NAFTA85,142

    •  Don't forget that one H1-B visa is good (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluehawk, bgblcklab1, tech ed

      for 6 years. Those 58,000 people are going to be taking my job for the next 6 years, and 5 * 58,000 are already here.

      Now that you've gone Galt, I get your stuff.

      by pucklady on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:48:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  On top of that, the workers who were (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pucklady, Bronx59

        displaced in the 1990's were already forced into other occupations or into survival jobs after their employers decided to place workers using the visas.

        No other advanced industrialized country would even think of doing this to the workforce. It's only the US, where the employers have ruled the roost for over 30 years. That is far too long already. The entitled employers need to step down. They have already had their day.

        "...our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested US worker." -Lawrence Lebowitz

        by tech ed on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:50:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Are you a computer programmer? (0+ / 0-)

        Most H1B visas are for IT people.

  •  Until US citizens can apply for H1B visas (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bluehawk, Jane Lew, tech ed

    Companies that only hire H1B visa holders should be prosecuted for discrimination based on country of origin.

    Now that you've gone Galt, I get your stuff.

    by pucklady on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:51:13 PM PDT

  •  H1B visas and the others (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bluehawk, Jane Lew

    should have a high tax associated with them - at least the amount of the going rate for that job. If there is truly a shortage of talent, employers will happily pay a premium.

    The current fee of $5-$10,000 per visa is a joke. That won't even pay for my job search to replace the job that went to the visa holder.

    Now that you've gone Galt, I get your stuff.

    by pucklady on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:54:23 PM PDT

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